It seems to me that it should be pretty near impossible for X10 signals to be able to get to the protected line voltage outputs of a UPS. I would like to use a UPS in front of some equipment (projector) that I would like to control (on/off only) via X10.

So, is there some way to get X10 signals from the house line voltage side of a UPS to the protected side? Assume for purposes of this question that the UPS produces nice sinusoidual output, rather than square waves or other forms of lots of high frequency noise.

Regards,

DG



This message was edited by davidgrove on 03/01/04 13:03.

I would first try the typical signal bridge, the kind with two blacks and two whites. Keep in mind that the bridge will transfer any line noise that falls within the passband of the bridge to the computer.

Larry
www.fineelectricco.com

Larry,

Is a "typical signal bridge" the same thing as a "phase coupler"? When I used the term "bridge", I didn't know it may already have had a specific meaning in X10 context.

Thank you.

DG

Yes.

Thank you, Larry.

Is using a bridge for my UPS application as simple as connecting one of the hot and neutral pairs of the bridge to the line voltage input side of the UPS, and the other hot/neutral pair to the protected side of the UPS?

Is there any reason not to use one of the newer "neutral-less" bridges?

Lastly, may I use a bridge to "jumper" X10 communication from an X10 transmitter on one branch circuit to the output side of my UPS, which is plugged into a different branch circuit?

If I have not asked clearly enough, Id be happy to provide more detail.

Thank you.

Regards,

DG

I believe so. I haven't used one, but I once read that someone successfully used a pair of bridges to send X-10 signals over two wires of a barbed-wire fence over a large distance.


Not familiar with them. It sounds like you're describing a device that merely connects to the two hot wires. Whether the surge strip blocks the direct neutral connection is unknown.


Should work.


How'd I do?


You're welcome.

"...X-10 signals over two wires of a barbed-wire fence over a large distance..."

I love it. Sort of reminds me of the guys that used coat hangers (instead of coax) to transfer AC-3. Just because they could. And to make a point.



"...Not familiar with them...[bridges without neutrals]"

Here's an example: [Link: smarthome.com]



"...Whether the surge strip blocks the direct neutral connection is unknown..."

Oohhh. Good point. Maybe I should stick with something like this: [Link: smarthome.com] . But then, neutral wouldn't be isolated and/or surge protected. Hmmm. Wonder what the "right way" is to get X10 signals to the protected side of a UPS is.



"How'd I do?"

Gold star, as usual :-)



Regards,

DG

I believe the reason that the second bridge has two whites instead of one is because they're not internally tied together, so that shouldn't be a concern.

There are two other things that occur to me:

1) Some surge strips, those with 'noise filtering', can reduce the strength of nearby X-10 signals, and your use sure qualifies as 'nearby'.

2) The bridge bypassing the surge strip might also reduce it's effectiveness as a noise filter, since it's being used to carry high frequencies around the strip.

Maybe someone more familiar with X-10 and surge/noise filters may be able to shed more light. Anyone?

Larry
www.fineelectricco.com

Thank you, Larry.

I think I confused things a little with my comment about the neutral not being isolated. What I was thinking was that if I wire nut all the neutrals together, then the neutral on the protected side of the UPS is for sure not isolated in any way from the neutral on the input side of the UPS. If there is any MOS protection, for instance, in the neutral line, then I would "short it out" by tying all the neutrals together. I believe quality surge supressors do have protection in both hot and neutral lines. If the UPS has quality surge suppression (in addition to the battery backup), then I have just "neutralized" :-) the neutral line surge protection.

But... as you observe, there are two neutrals in the device I indicated as an example. So, thinking better this time, I guess I could make a separate splice for the neutrals on the output side of the UPS (rather than a single, big wire-nutted bunch), thus keeping the "separate identity" of the output side.

Maybe that would both allow me to get X10 signals into the protected side of the UPS, while still preserving any isolation and/or protection on the output side of the UPS.

Regarding your two points:

1) I don't fully understand. Wouldn't the bridge be adding the X10 signal on the output side of any filtering. That's what I'm trying to accomplish, anyway: getting the X10 signals on the other side (output side) of any destruction from SCR chopping, ferroresonant devices, etc. (UPS stuff). That would also be on the output side of any filtering, thus avoiding filtering attenuation. Or so my X10-challenged mind thinks. I welcome being set straight on this.

2) I agree that filtering efffectiveness would be reduced. Whatever (X10 signals and noise) is in the bridge passband in the source circuit would be added to the destination circuit (output side of the UPS). I don't see any way around that. But, it would be no worse off than all the other non UPS protected devices. Besides, my chief purpose in using the UPS is not surge suppression, but avoidance of power interruption.

I just want to find a way to provide X10 control (without having the X10 signal disappear into a black hole at the UPS) of an appliance module that will be plugged in to a UPS. (Actually, the appliance module might be physically plugged into an outlet in an outlet box fed from the UPS. The output side of the bridge would also be connected to the circuit in this same box. Thus, I "inject" the X10 signals "downstream" of the UPS.)

I would welcome all comments about how one controls UPS protected X10 devices.

Regards,

DG

I guess I should ask... what do you want to control with the appliance module?

Larry
www.fineelectricco.com

A DLP projector.

DG

I would think that, as with most projectors, it's better to allow the cool-down cycle to run rather than cut the power while still hot.

Plus, I would also think it's not that importand to power a projector with a UPS, especially if you're not concerned about shutting down hot.

Larry
www.fineelectricco.com

Yes, the cool down is important. I want to power the projector from a UPS precisely because I never want to have a sudden interruption of power, and although still rare, power interruptions are more common at my location (Alaska) than at typical "Lower 48 States" locations.

The projector will normally be controlled by either IR remote or RS-232 interface from computer. During operation, these mechanisms will determine whether the projector is in "Standby" or "On", and, thus, permit the automatic cooldown to ocurr. The appliance module will control whether [after coodown is complete] the projector is, in effect, "unplugged".

It is desirable to be able to unplug the NEC LT-150 projector, which is the projector I have. It has to do with keeping some projector settings "reset". Older posts discussing the LT150 over at AVSforum describe this.

The LT-150 is very small, and I am installing it in the soffit in the rear of the HT. Thus, it won't be particularly convenient to physically plug and unplug the projector. Of course, there will be an access panel, but it would be much more convenient to be able to connect and disconnect power under X10 control.

So, I would still ask the question (of anyone), "Is using a bridge generally accepted as a way to use an appliance module on the output side of a UPS?" (If not, how is it typically done?)

Thank you.

Regards,

DG

This message was edited by davidgrove on 03/01/04 14:33.

There's also the possibility of using an X-10 RF receiver module, which responds to RF transmitters, such as keychain units, palmpads, etc.

You don't need a bridge or any other X-10 equipment this way, and there's no compromising the effectiveness of your protection either.

Larry
www.fineelectricco.com

I wasn't even aware of that possibility. What a total X10 noob I am. Sounds like a real option.

Is there a corresponding X10 RF transmitter, so that I could use X10 control over all of it?

Maybe this is how other folks have used X10 with a UPS... Or am I really asking about something very unusual that noone really does?

Thank you for all your comments. More gold stars.

DG