Please lend me the benefit of your expertise! Let me try to recap the impressions I've gotten from following several threads, and please comment on my mistakes/suggest other ideas. I'm going to use Monster as the baseline, since most of us seem to be aware of their product line.

1) Cable quality can and does make a perceivable difference, but not as great as the hype would like you to think.

2) The lowest quality cables (the ones that come in the box with the components) should be avoided.

3) A heavy Radio Shack type patch cable for about $13 a 1 meter pair is just as good as anything Monster offers through the IL300 at roughly $30 for a 1 meter pair.

4) An IL400 is noticeably better than those listed in item three. (Roughly $40 for a 1 meter pair)

5) Silver Serpents from bettercables (roughly $80 for a 1 meter pair) are noticeably better than the IL400, and less expensive than any comparable Monster product.

6) Anything (boutique) cables more expensive than this is probably not worth the extra money.

Do you agree? I have the most awful rat's nest of cables from zip cord through Esoteric Audio "I can't believe I paid this much," and I want to standardize the whole mess. I'm currently leaning toward the Monster IL400 as "better than most, but half the price of the next perceivably better" cable. Would you agree?

Any and all assistance is greatly appreciated! -Bruce

This message was edited by Bruce Burson on 12/13/01 06:14.23.

Bruce, I'd like to offer the following advice, which applies to almost all of life's decisions:

If one brand is "noticely better" than another, you should go 'up the ladder' to the point where you definitely won't say to yourself,"Yeah I saved a few cents or bucks, but now I wish I had gone the one step more."

You save a little at one point in time, but have to live with the choice you made for a long time.

I apply this philosophy to the important choices, like Pepsi, Heinz ketchup, Philadelphia cream cheese, and Duke's mayonnaise.

Larry

P.S. Duke's is a local brand made by the C. F. Sauer Co. here in Richmond. If anybody wants to try it, let me know. I'd be glad to buy you a jar, and ship it to you (I won't profit, but will ask for postage)

This message was edited by Larry Fine on 11/26/01 19:59.26.

I agree with both of you...in a way. I believe the cables that come with the equpiment are possibly the worst ever made, well no even possibly, they are. But how much to spend on a decent cable?? I say go with Canare Quad Star cable at about .50 cents a foot and terminate it yourself. Great cable mostly used for pro studio microphone usage. Excellent RF suppression because of the 2 pair twist, and tonally neutral. They make a permanent install version with a foil and drain wire, or go with the flex type with a braided shield.

Thanks, Larry, Matt:

What about the rest of you? I would especially like to hear from anyone who is using commercial cables (Matt, I'm too clumsy to build my own :) What brand(s) do you use, and how much do you have to spend before you

1) Are satisfied with the quality, and

2) Don't think you spent too much. Where's the price point beyond which more money doesn't make enough audible difference to matter anymore?

I know everyone's ears and budget are different, but I would greatly appreciate your opinions. I have so many boxes in my setup that the cable purchase is going to cost me a bundle! Silver Serpents will run well over $1,200 for example. Help me out here folks, I've been out of the hobby so long I really need your advice.

Whoa, Bruce: talk about opening up Pandora's connector box. Let me just preface what follows by saying this is not a rant :-) ; I've been in radio/TV/recording for... well, a while now. I only point this out because it's given me many years to use many different types of cables, for a variety of A/V uses.

1. The quality of the cable in the box depends on the company; for example, RCA provides some of the best cables with their DVDs that I've ever seen in a box; on the other hand, most basic cables are just fine, and you won't notice any difference in quality unless one of two things is going on: either you have some sophisticated testing equipment, or you're so far gone that you can't really tell the difference any more between Bryers vanilla and Ben & Jerry's vanilla.

There is one caveat: the weaker the shielding, and the more angular bends it carries, the higher the likelihood of interference, which can cause both audible and visual noise. And poorly attached, poorly made connectors do the same thing.

2. Zip cord, or that 14, 16, and 18 gauge stuff you get at the hardware store for wiring lamps, works pretty darn good for speakers. Always has, always will. And, if you go into a recording studio that's been around for a few years, you'll still see bits and pieces of Radio Shack RCA cables mixed in with the fat stuff used for patching various pieces of hardware.

3. I've never had, nor wanted, the opportunity to compare the really expensive brands side by side, but after listening more than just a bit, trying to tell the difference between Monster and WalMart is like trying to perceive the "robotic" sound of a DVD because it is digitally recorded... .

4. There's a professional installer, goes by the name of randy (that's right, with a lower-case "r") who hangs out here from time to time who HAS had a chance to compare the high-priced brands, and he'll tell you that he's only ever heard a difference in one single brand, and that even though he believes it's there, he won't recommend that anyone should actually spend that kind of money unless they have nothing else to do with it.

That all being said, and this not being a rant, let me wrap up by saying that of course, its totally subjective, and laying some nice, smooth, fat cable with fancy connectors gives me a really good feeling... but that's all it gives me.

I somewhat agree Mike, because when I wire a studio, guess what kind of cable we (and all other companies use) it's not the grand per meter stuff. It's the Canare's or the Belden's....Don't you think if cable made such a huge difference, studios would wire their facilities with cable like Wireworlds Gold Eclipse III+.

I actually have some wireworld wire in my system and to be honest, I actually do hear a difference from the cheapie cables that come with the stuff. I have the Orbit Interconnects and wouldn't go any higher than that, beyond that is ridiculous in my opinion. I use the Ultraviolet for my video...

www.wireworldaudio.com It's cool stuff to look at but at 10,000 a meter I certainly would rather buy a car!! (Gold Eclipse wire)

This message was edited by Matt on 11/28/01 11:16.33.

Matt
Where can I get the Canare's Quad Star cable? I am going to be moving soon and I will be re-racking all of my equipment and figured it would be a great time to rewire everything w/ the same interconnects. I use a hodgpodge right now from MITs to RCA's Home Theater cables...plus custom making the lengths make it so much easier IMHO....Thanks...Tony

kustomkables.com

Jason will make Canare cables for you for a decent price.

rhinocables.com
avcables.com

are also good for the price. These are all essentially studio quality cables, mostly using belden or canare cable and true 75 ohm connectors from canare and others.

I was researching this very topic a while ago.
It can get SO ridiculous that there are companies making kits containing 2 8 foot copper cables selling for $1800.00 US. & I just found out you can spend $24,000.00 Canadian for a kit with 2 10 foot cables - gold - no, platinum - no. They are COPPER! mind you that's 99.999999999% pure of course. Then if that's not enough they recommend wrapping the cables with leather strips soaked in a dampening fluid (snake oil?)& finally if you are not satisfied you can purchase lttle X shaped holders to keep them off the floor!!!

Honestly speaking a good 14 or 12 guage wire is all you need-14 guage for up to 20-25ft & 12 guage for longer runs. About 30-80 cents a foot

I also believe putting the wire straight into the speaker terminals without banana or other type plugs will serve you well. Howver again if you want to spend money on gold plated ends or gold connectors that's your business.

I would like to see a realistic (that is a human ear range) study done complete with converted to human ear capablilties on the difference between $35,000.00 dollars to hook up 2 decent affordable speakers to the average decent affordable amp/recvr, versus $20.00. Maybe Mr. Lucas et al could lend us the Skywalker Ranch & labs for a week & we might be able to measure a realistic difference with a computer that can measure in parts per trillions.
Sorry if I went off a bit but I don't like snake oil salesmen! Some of my good friends have been ripped off in this way.
Dougofthenorth (now simmering down)

David Salz of Wireworld makes a cable comparator machine....

Although it's a line level device...It would be fun to try sometime in a double blind test situation!

Thanks, All:

Based on your advice, I jumped off into the world of cable research. Thanks to Larry for the guiding philosophy of going to the point where you definitely won't say to yourself, "Yeah I saved a few cents or bucks, but now I wish I had gone the one step more." Thank you Mike for the technical guidance, and Matt for clarification and vendor recommendations. Here's my current plan, what do you think?

Wholesale Manufacturers: Canare and Belden

Analog Audio: Canare L-4E6S (cscables.com) $46 per 1m pair.
Digital Audio: Belden 1506a w/shield (rhinocables.com) $45 for one meter.
Composite Video: Canare L-5CFB (kustomkables.com) $19 for three feet
S-Video: Belden 1808a (cscables) $37 for one meter.
Component Video: Canare V-5CFB (kustomkables) $46 + $4 per foot.

I'm debating terminating them myself (Matt :) but I listed the vendor prices if I get lazy. Do these prices seem to be in-line with the cable quality? I am stationed in Germany, so my "easy" options are limited to Web vendors (who speak English :) who can ship via US Postal Service. Otherwise I get hit for major taxes (and possibly language barriers).

On a related topic, what do you all think of using Canare Star-Quad 4S8 as speaker wire: Overkill? Matt, you and Mike mention studio wiring experience, what do you use?

Thanks for all your help so far. I've really learned a lot from this forum. Even my wife is impressed at the improvements to our audio and video quality that I've implemented so far based on what I've picked up!

Regards,

-Bruce

Bruce,
To save money try and buy from as few Vendors as possible. Some on line cable vendors have flat rate shipping. Others will give discount for multi cable purchases.
IMO
I think Belden makes a better analog audio cable than what Canare (L-4E6S)has to offer. Belden 89259 as an example uses some pretty un-common material in its construction compared with the canare star-quad cable you mention. Yes I know that the Star quad is well regarded.
Belden 1694a is a higher spec cable than the Canare cables you mentioned for both composite and component use. Not that you will notice the difference with composite of over short runs. The longer the run the more the Belden will excell.
So my advise would be to buy the majority of your cables from one or two vendors max.
Rhinocables: Digital and analog audio, Composite and component audio
CScables or KustomKables could supply most of the above as well although I think the Rhinocables have a better mix.
For S-vid I'd go with a bettercables or Catcables design. The cable used in the above will offer better performance than the Cscable offering. My experience with 1808a hasnt left me that impressed.
To sum up you should e-mail the above vendors you mentioned and request a quote for the cables they can provide and see if they will give you a package price. I'm sur ethey will all ship to Grmany but it may be worth confirming as well.

I use normal 12-2 or 14-2 wire for speakers...I've never noticed a difference in anything else.

46 bucks for a meter pair of canare seems a bit steep for me. I could do it myself for less than half that.

Composite video you could use Belden 1695A/1694A and be set. Use three of those for component. You would then have to terminate them, I suggest Kings BNC connectors for termination and then convert that to an RCA with comprehensive BNC-RCA adaptors. All this is possible for a resonable price....give me an email.

Wow, the previous poster was within minutes of mine...LOL although the 1694a is an excellent choice for video, I think Canare has the better cable simply because of it's rejection of RFI interferance capabilities....the belden product mentioned is actually an RG-59 video cable.

This message was edited by Matt on 12/13/01 22:13.55.

As I mentioned in a different thread I have spent a good deal of my career looking at and measuring singals traveling on circuit boards and cables for disk and tape drive manufacturers where it really does make a difference. At audio frequencies the signal does not care what cable it is traveling on. The cheap cables that come with the equipment are every bit as good as "silver serpents". I do admit one thing though, the cheap cables look cheap and I do like the look of all the pretty pastel colored cables when I get done with an installation. Just a couple other items:

1. Interference is probably your biggest cause of distortion. Keep your patch cords short and stay away from power.

2. Upgrade to shielded wire if you're woried about noise.

3. Twisted wire really only matters if you are using a balanced system, otherwise you are lacking the common mode rejection necessary for noise reduction.

4. Video is a little more discriminating. The important thing here is to maintain impedance throughout the circuit, so make sure all crimps and connections are tight.

5. Sometimes it's just fun to have pretty cables. If that's your bag, knock yourself out.

This thread has lots of great info on patch-cable length interconnects, but what about longer ones? I'm wiring up a second zone that's about 50 cable-feet away from the reciever. This, from what I've read pretty much requires the use of RG59 or RG6 coax.
For my purposes I'm planning on using:
Belden 9555 dual RG59/U - radioshack #910-1589
Centerpin RG59/U RCA connectors - radioshack #910-5482
I figure that since the belden cable will be good for audio since it uses bare copper braid for the shielding, and at 50 cents a foot for 2 RG59's the price was reasonable. I liked the centerpin connectors for two reasons: they don't require any specialty tools like strippers or crimpers; and it's a single connector to get all the way to RCA ends, instead of using F-to-RCA converters.

--
Dave