Shop,

We have now gone full circle. I asked why only signalincs have antennas (visable).
I liked your first answer better. Signalincs do the RF portion of the dual band.

Now we are back to all devices doing both power line and RF ???

I have spent a lot of time now ready on Insteon I am still unclear. What I think I understand is just what you said to begin with. Signalincs are required to complete the system by providing the RF linc and phase coupling.

If you look at the specs of a device such as the Switchlinc V2 dimmer nothing is said about its RF capability. This is consistent with the lack of an antenna (at least visable).

I read the Insteon details at [Link: insteon.net]. and was still left not understanding very well.

I think the question is, do all Insteon devices contain an RF section (at 904Mhz)? From what I have read they do not. I think this is why they say you must have at least two Signalincs in your system in order to take advantage of the dual mesh network.

Signalincs may be the only RF transmiters, but I cannot say for sure. unlike X10 each Insteon device retransmits the signal making a stronger system. Insteon devices also send back a signal to let other devices know whether it is turned on or off I am not sure if this is done through the powerline, RF or both.

Every light in my home is powered with an Insteon switch, for me so far Insteon has always worked 100%.

With the computer timer one of my favorite features has been having my bedroom slowly brighten over about a 20 minute period, 4% every minute creating a sunrise effect. It is like waking for work in the summertime all year long appearing as though the sun has come up before I need to get up.

Thank God I'm not the only one.


Yup... that's what I want to know. One correct answer please...:)

So if all devices repeat both the RF and Powerline communications the only real purpose of the SignalLincs is to create the connection between the 2 phases..? I'm sure they also increase RF strength within the system but the added advantage is the phase coupling....

Right?

Right, Insteon says a minimum of 2 Signalincs are needed in any system even if it is only using a single phase. But the main thing is 2 are used to connect 2 different phases together.

When you first install your Signalincs you plug in your first Signalinc and put it into "connecting" mode then plug your second Signalinc into a different outlet. There is a light on the signalinc, a slow blink when you plug in the second Signalinc means that the 2 Signalincs are connected but on the same phase a fast blink means they are connected and on 2 different phases. If the light stay on solid and does not blink the 2 Signalincs are not connecting.

This leads me to believe that Insteon's devices, receptacles/switches/dimmers, what have you, don't necessarily emitt RF with any real amplitude. Insteon trys to make the Signalincs a standard component to ensure communication. The Signalincs being phase couplers also act as RF amplifiers. Making sure that every devices RF signals whether out going or incoming, are strong enough to reach the device or the systems controller. At least this is the only reason I can think of using them, on a system with a single phase.

On a side note: To make things more confusing for some. There is no such thing as a 2 phase system. Only single and three...:)

Thanks for the explanations guys. It's really helped me wrap my head around Insteon, and why X10 needs to die a slow painful death.

Yes, I am not sure myself exactly how this works, I only have the 2 Signalincs yet the whole house is connected to Insteon. I was concerned before I installed my system as one major breaker controls many wall light switches and has no plug-in outlets so I was worried it would not be controled with Insteon, but it was. I believe this is do to the neutral wires, Insteon does require neutral wires at each connection to work so be sure you do have a neutral wire at every connection you wish to use with Insteon. Hot, neutral and ground are required connections.

The individual devices transmit and receive through the power line only, no RF. The Signalinc couplers transmit and repeat through both RF *and* powerline. This creates extra signal paths through the Signalincs that increase reliability and couple the phases, while keeping the prices of the switches lower than they would if they did both.

I'm in the process of moving many of my switches to Insteon, and I've been very happy with it so far. The biggest drawback for me is the current lack of an IR receiver to use a remote with it.

Alrightly then... so to recap:

-Insteon devices, other than Signalincs, communicate only with powerline signals.
-Only Signalincs can communicate with both RF and powerline signals.
-All Insteon devices repeat signals received by them. Whether it be a "command" or a "confirmed" signal.
-All Insteon devices will confirm an action performed by transmitting a "command received" signal. (or whatever its called)

Now, your system controller..... Does it also have the RF capabilities, so it can communicate with the Signalincs?

Sorry if I'm repeating questions, but I figure with the inconsistent answers, I'll ask several times and then use the average...:)

You should check with SmartHome on what exactly is using RF. Obviously Signalincs are RF as they have the antennas however reading SmartHome's info about Insteon it seems to suggest that all devices use RF to some extent, actually I thought the added RF was the main difference between X10 and Insteon. Regardless of exactly how it is working it works very well.

Splogue, I agree it will be nice when Insteon comes out with an IR receiver of its own. In the mean while the IR-543 will enable your Insteon devices to work with IR. This works OK but I am sure the Insteon receiver when it comes out will be nicer.

Smokinghot, I think your recap sounds fair. I believe what Splogue has stated to be true.
Not to be picky but there is actually a 2 phase system. It was more for industrial use with 90 degrees between phases. Most normal house power is single phase that is split phase (180 degree between legs).

From what I read I like what Insteon offers. What is important for me is the robustness of the protocol, error checking and acknowledgements. It does not matter to me that each device does not broadcast RF as long as the Signalincs do the receipt of the powerline commands and repeat them via RF.

I believe I read that you can actually install a hardware phase coupler and have the Insteon system work without Signalincs -provided you didn't want the dual mesh network provided by the RF section of the Signalincs.

Any new devices I buy will be dual Insteon/X10 and when Insteon comes out with a (keyfob RF or PIR detector RF) to Insteon, and IR to Insteon devices then I will go all Insteon.

Oh, I forgot to ask!

You do not need any of those stupid X10 type filters with Insteon, or do you?
You know those filters used to isolate the devices from signal suckers or noise sources!

That is one of my main issues with X10. They were not designed to operate in today's more electrically harsh environment. Hopefully Insteon is. If not then I am not interested. My guess is that the powerline section may be have some issues that the RF section makes up for.

I love those X10 experts that claim all manufacturers of TV etc. should be responsible for keeping noise off of the grid so that X10 can operate. Like that will happen any time soon!

Sorry my friend, (and sorry for everyone for being off topic), but I'm not sure where you live or what obscure piece of equipment your talking about. However there literally is are no 2 phase systems. There are systems that can use two phases but these are referred to single phase systems. I have never in my experience heard of what your talking about so if you could explain I would greatly appreciate it.

Thanks

I do not need any filters with my Insteon system. There are no filters designed specifically for Insteon but if you experience problems you can use the same filters as X10. I have not needed to use one and I believe Insteon is probably less sensitive than X10 in that area.

Also yes you can use Insteon devices without Signalincs but without them they will only operate in X10 mode. Every Insteon switch has its own unique code built in for Insteon mode and each can be assigned one X10 code. Unlike X10 the code in Insteon mode is not assigned it is built in and cannot be changed but there are so many codes you will never get 2 switches with the same code.

The recap is 100% correct (all "yes" answers to the questions).

The bedside controller uses powerline, not RF, so it plugs in. I didn't get one because it seems very limited and is much larger in size than it looks in the picture (check the dimensions before you buy one).

I'm not using any filters on anything, and my switches are all working fine. I am also using four Signalincs to ensure clear transmission paths throughout my house. If you add more than one, they will automatically link up with any existing Signalincs in range.

In my opinion, Insteon is X10 that works. I dabbled in X10 several years ago and found it to be very inexpensive. It was also almost worthless due to its unreliability and tendency for lights to turn on by themselves. After a couple of nighttime wake-ups and arriving home from work to find the porch lights were on all day, I pulled them out and put them in a box where they belong.