I see we're not really sharing a context, but since this is an Internet forum, I guess that is implied. ;-)

Let's just say that there is a segment of the population that is never going to ask you how to wire their components or what stuff they ought to buy. Those people also don't see the point in paying extra to have a box handed to them -- a box they've specified themselves and will integrate themselves.

if you mean me, then no, I don't work for any remote company.

I think IT, CE and remotes are different, the only way I see IT companies coming out with a great remote would be to buy a remote company that knows what it is doing, basically what Logitech did with Harmony. Like Daniel said the two companies you gave as examples both tried and messed up badly. On the other hand if my money as just on universal learning remotes, I would put my money on UEI and one-for-all.

This whole discussion about the internet ban is moot. Amazon will end up putting these up for sale 2-3 weeks after release and Philips won't say "boo" about it. They will not cut off one of their biggest outlets.

Philips did an internet ban with the TSU6000 and the TSU7000. Basically, they tell us that we can advertise that we have them for sale and in stock, but you have to call or email for pricing. We just can't put a price on our website. I haven't heard anything about the latest Prontos yet so I am not sure if this is the way the latest "ban" will be handled.

Anthony, I've been reading your posts for years, and I have a great deal of respect for you, but if you don't believe that the IT and CE worlds are converging, you aren't looking at today's ads or attending the appropriate conferences. HP, Dell and Gateway are selling TVs; Microsoft is investing big-time in Media Center; Apple is in the iPOD and iTunes business. CE is fast becoming an all-digital world. Who better to capitalize that companies who understand the digital world.

Do you know this for a fact or are you speculating?

mburwen: I definetly know there is convergence. Did you see the anouncement where MS and Intel have decided to join HD-DVD to make sure it will be compatible and usble with their network/streaming server/player model? Look at AACS (next generation CP) it has more IT companies on the board then studios.

My point was simply that a remote is a personal object and so companies that have been building them for years have an advantage over companies that think they know what customers want based on their own bias.

Look at Harmony. The 745 their first remote was a great product but many people hated it because it did not have enough buttons, then came the 768 and it was much better but many did not like the scroll wheel. Their concept was excellent, but needed tweaking, and they are still working on that even though they have been bough by Logitech. Look at how many companies (Sony, Compaq, some small make shift PDA add-on companies) have created SW/HW to turn PDAs into remotes, none of them took off.

Do I think it is possible for an IT company to build an excellent remote? Yes, but they must decide they are a remote manufacturer and decide they are willing to cater to the remote world, and I don't think IT companies have that in them for now and the best thing (like Logitech) would be to buy out and integrate an established remote manufacturer and integrate them (i.e. let them do what they do) into them.

Like Daniel said many IT companies have taken stabs at the remote world and have been major flops. MS created the IRIQ remote that was a touch screen and came out priced at the same price and time as the Pronto, one was a major flop because it looked nice but did not work well and was too limited while the other was a major success that is the grand-daddy of all TS remotes and I would say the PDA-remotes.

Lots of issues here. First, they took "stabs" as opposed to making major investments -almost always a formula for failure - especially for a large company because small efforts do not get the attention of senior management.

But the real issues in my view are standards and software. There is very little reason to reinvent the hardware wheel. The hardware can always be licensed, OEM'd or cloned (legally of course). Access to IR data bases can be purchased.

The product differentiators in the remote business from a user perspective are integration, ease-of-use, ease of modification, compatibility, cosmetics, support and price. Add to that margin and reliability if you are a dealer.

Now look at the product entries in the ProntoProNG category: UEI, URC, RTI, Sony, maybe the new Harmony. I can't comment on the dealer view, but from an end user view, the differences are very small. In fact, as long as Prontos can be had for Internet prices, the biggest differentiator is price. That is enough to motivate most hobbyists/techies. Thus, if Philips bans Internet sales, the Pronto is just another entry in a market that is probably too small to support all the companies that are in it.

This message was edited by mburwen on 09/28/05 16:06 ET.

Philips rep reportedly
"explained that Pronto is the only product that is sold "incomplete" or in other words needs custom programming to deliver a total end product to the customer."

Um, my computer required a lot of customization before it would do what I want. Many of the programs I run on my computer required considerable work by me to establish databases, etc. By the above Philips logic, no consumers would be allowed to customize their own computers or do things such as build databases. And certainly private consumers would not be able to get computers at current prices.

In a world organized by Philips logic, this forum would probably not exist since each of us would need a custom expert to program the messages found on the forum. Very few people would have computers because of the cost of hiring experts to run them.

Philips needs to look at how computer companies distribute their products and how they price them. (Moderately powerful computers cost less than Pronto 7000!) Also, I doubt if a custom installer would create the pronto files exactly the way I want them. And if I decided on a confirguration change at say 10 Pm, I doubt many custom installers would be available then to immediately modify my Pronto files. Currently I can do things exactly as I wish, and complicated pronto files do not cost me any money.

In fact I decided tonight to modify my Pronto 7000 file tomorrow morning while a contractor works in my home. Would a Philips rep like to take a red eye flight to be at my door at say 9:30 AM to do about 30 minutes of programing?

Also I live in a community of about 37,000 people. No Pronto 7500 dealers here. No inernet sales means I will not replace prontos units as they expire.

I noticed today that 7500 is for sale on the internet for under $700. Philips site lists online dealers for this model--however the few such dealers I tried online did not have it. But other dealers list it for sale and can be found by Google search.

There is currently no internet sales ban, product is in stock and ready to ship!

Hmmm, not quite sure about that. When I inquired at D&H a few days ago, about the new 7500 model, my rep warned me about the new "no-internet" sales and said D&H required that I send an email asking for approval to sell Prontos.

So far, nothing similar from AVAD. Of course, AVAD has a long-standing policy against internet selling.

But anyway you look at it, Philips has clearly communicated the process to some of their distributors and has them jumping through hoops. The also warned about having authorization yanked, if I were to run amuck of the new provision.

Dave

We received our first units in without question or comment of the internet sales ban. Maybe the disti wasn't up to speed with Philips new policy on the new remotes...

It will be interesting as Philips wanted to do this with the last pronto remotes but caved when they weren't selling the volume they needed to.

I'm sure that, this being the biggest selling season for CE products, we'll be able to see what Philips' is going to do with the new series fairly soon.

It will be interesting down the road when Philips starts building up an inventory of "Bstock" refurbs. Will they be selling them on their internet store?

Cyberzr

It is typical to reduce restrictions on Refurbs or "B" stock units and to dump them on the internet. That does not have to effect mainline sales.
Sales didn't drop from custom installers due to the internet. Those who buy that way are not our customers. It was due to the fact that the NG product was erratic in RF operation and unreliable with the RFX6000 and poor software. This allowed URC and RTI to replace Pronto with CI dealers. BTW, if you think Pronto is common and a big internet seller, keep in mind almost all non pro consumers participate on this site and most people who buy PC programmable remotes and are not "into" them as we are, never get them to work properly.

There's a difference between an sales ban and MAP (minimum advertised pricing).
You'd be suprised at the number of products that have one or the other.
Neither are useful unless the manufacturer/distributor is willing to enforce it.
I see products online everyday that violate the MAP policies of that product.

It's not so much an effect to protect dealers as it is an effort to keep the 'image' of the product.

Price = Quality in most consumers eyes, and if they see two identical remotes, one is $800 and one is $500, they are going to assume that the $800 one is better simply because it is more expensive. And most people won't 'call for pricing', they'll just go to the next place that has a price listed.

By protecting the price, Philips no doubt believes they are protecting the image of the product as a high end, high value unit.