Eric, a well thought out, and well written statement of your opinion. My response ....."Nonsense".
Im a person who likes good food and Wine. By your arguement if im asked "Where can i go for a good meal?" I should say McDonalds! They are the largest Restaurant chain in the world. They carefully engineer their product to please people. This does not give them a quality product. They simply mass produce food for pennies on the dollar. Bose is the same way. Yet bose unlike mcdonalds markets itself as a High End Product. IT IS Not. As far as your contention that people play electronic tricks to make other systems sound better let me say this. In all of my years in home theater sales and design i have never once adjusted a tone setting on an EQ to do a demonstration for a customer. When i set up displays in my showroom i try to recreate a home listening environment. Doing otherwise is somewhat dishonest and i dont do it. Im not on a crusade i am just telling the truth. Give any comparably priced system a side by side challenge against bose and most people will choose the other.
Bose makes a mass produced, cheap product. That they sell at Hi fi prices.
"Why buy that $15.00 bottle of wine. This box of martini and rossi for 3.99 tastes the same."

Just my 2c.

emdawgz1,

I really didn't mean to say that anyone is using electronic tricks to demonstrate Home Theater, other than Bose, who I think use quite a clever "trick" - they always have loudness compensation engaged. This is not done in any other system, because of the audiophile perception that the engagement of any tone control "clouds" or "veils" the clarity (even loudness compensation that gradually eliminates itself as the volume rises - according to the Fletcher-Munson effect).

In a low volume comparison between an audiophile system (even my own B & K power amps and Magnepan MGIII speakers) and any Bose system, the Bose system would win, if I did not engage Loudness Compensation. The human ear does not hear bass as well as other frequencies at low volumes. Any listener would immeadiatly notice that the sound was richer from the Bose system. A very experienced ear, or a client with some guidance from an able counseler like yourself, could hear that the audiophile system sounded clearer and more realistic.

However, as your apt analogy of food and wine makes so clear, some will prefer the rich bass at the expense of the clarity.

I would recommend that any comparison of Bose with audiophile equipment at low volumes be done with the audiphile system's loudness eq on. Since a well designed eq circuit actually eliminates itself at higher volumes, it can be left on until you are evaluating the differences between electronics. At that point, the "veil" or "clouding" induced by the eq should be eliminated.

Overall, given the prices Bose charges, I find that they give good value, like Mcdonalds and some wine brands in the low end. Not to be compared, since they place a great deal of their efforts on pleasing people in ways that are not "pure performance", just as McDonald's makes an acceptable burger and fry snack.

No one in their right mind would consider placing a McSnack on a table with a carefully prepared gourmet repast and asking people to compare them. Neither should we. We should be asking our clients what they like about Bose, and showing them products that perform in the way that they want. Liking Bose is a wonderful qualification step, not an invitation to a sharp reply from any of us.

As for Bose marketing, their favorite phrase is "rich, life-like sound without big, bulky speakers." They are not marketing to the audiophile and I don't see any pretentions at all in the website and brochures. They constantly harp on life style, the ability to sit anywhere etc. All things that we custom installers know how to do with far more invisible speakers and far better ultimate clarity, simplicity and style!

Once we have identified WHY someone likes Bose, we have all the information we need. If they say:

1) I love the sound, it is so rich!
We know they are probably a low volume listener and we need to demo at low volumes with loudness EQ.

2) I love the fact that all that sound comes from those tiny little cubes!
We know that they like to show off, they need a really cool touchscreen and hidden subwoofers.

3) I trust Bose, they have always made the best speakers!
We know that they don't trust us yet. We have to earn their trust by discovering as much as we can about their lives, their home etc, proving our worth as counselors before demoing anything!

Best Regards,

-Eric

Eric Johnson
www.hometheaterpro.com

Phone 1-800-247-7001

Eric, no disrespect intended but you cant be serious. Bose cubes vs Magnepans at any volume is no contest. Bose makes the best speakers!!! Thats just ridiculous. I dont know what you are listening to but i have never heard anyone prefer bose in a side by side comparison.
Nobody.

To each his own i guess.

P.S. Are they paying you or what?

Brother Johnson keep up the good fight.
My family often dress up in our sunday best and takes the fight to the general publics doorstep,handing out Bose leaflets and explaining the benifits of Bose to there lifestyle. Yes we get doors slammed in our face but the pleasure our family gets from a convertion makes it all worth while.
praise be to Dr Amar Bose

Actually, I didn't say that. Why don't you take another look at what I wrote.

Best Regards,

-Eric

Eric Johnson
www.hometheaterpro.com

Phone 1-800-247-7001

No, I work for many companies assisting in product development work for the custom market, but never Bose. I have never been a Bose dealer either.

I simply feel that too see so many custom installers publicly slandering a company that builds products that many people love shows us as petty, disgruntled and jealous. Bose can't do what we do, and we don't choose to do what they do. Leave it at that.

Best Regards,

-Eric

Eric Johnson
www.hometheaterpro.com

Phone 1-800-247-7001

Eric Johnson,
We keep Bose cubes and sub on display in our showroom as one of the earlier posters has described. Out of dozens of people we have had listen to the Bose and then our Energy Take 2.2 system, only one said they would buy the Bose.
Contrary to what you have said, the Bose do not sound better. They are very tinny and lack bottom end. When the Energy kicks in, the midrange response smooths out, and a solid but not boomy bottom end emerges. This is not smoke and mirrors, this is not subtle, this is a night and day difference.
We tell people that the Bose is not a bad speaker, and some people may prefer that sound, but a far better sound and BETTER VALUE is available.

Tom,

I am gratified, I too think Energy speakers are fantastic. The Take system rocks and is incredibly revealing. I am surprised that you had even one person that liked the Bose better.

Again, I did not say that the Bose sound better. I said that a Bose system (with active loudness EQ, all of the Lifestyle systems have it) would be preferred to anything in a low volume demonstration (unless the audiophile system had loudness eq on as well). It is one of the key selling points in a Bose demonstration at a Bose store or Bose event. Know your competition.

I am not deaf. In fact I have pretty demanding tastes when it comes to music, speakers etc. I love fine speakers from Energy, Mirage, B & W, Magnepan, M & K, Triad, and many others. I believe that custom installers are in a uniquely powerful position with a client who says they want Bose. We can use it as part of the qualifying process. Again, know your competition.

This relentless cry of Bose #@!$#@! or whatever ignores the FACT that many people buy, own and enjoy Bose and would be insulted to be told that they don't know what they like.

I am glad to hear that you tell your customers that Bose is not bad, but that you have something special. I think that you are doing it right.

Best Regards,

-Eric

Eric Johnson
www.hometheaterpro.com

Phone 1-800-247-7001

I think all Eric is saying is "Know your enemy and know yourself and you will not be defeated in one thousand battles"

Thanks Bob,

I was feeling a little lonely. You put it very nicely.

-Eric

I think Eric is right on with the low volume bass eq, people like things they can definitely hear (anyone cranked up the rear speakers for a client?) I do think Bose has some severe deficiencies in other areas of the frequency response, however, which make them less desirable for general theater.

I've read and responded to this thread earlier ... I just can't get over the FACT ... better solutions are available ... I understand people THINK Bose is high end audio ... I also understand the old saying "You can lead a horse to water, but ... I take pride in the work I do ... I CAN'T understand SELLING OUT ... Better speakers are available at the same price or less ... I guess I'll just keep selling my crappy, inferior to Bose, speakers ...

Eric,
This I have to take exception to. There is nothing to shut down. Bose uses the cheapest drivers available at any production volume. I've had customers buy speakers out of the back of a white van that had better quality components than Bose.

OK, I haven't looked at a Bose driver. I may have overestimated the quality of their drivers. But they do have enormous buying power. Chinese manufacturers drool when they think about building a screw for Bose...

Best Regards,

-Eric

Eric Johnson
www.hometheaterpro.com

Phone 1-800-247-7001

Thanks for all the input Eric... you are right about not slamming the product to a client. Here, however, we have a chance to vent anonymously and share our opinions, hoping that a potential client will read some of the stuff here and begin to strip away the preprogramming that he/she has had battered into his/her head. As a former install manager for the Good Guys and one who started his business by doing installs for them and Circuit City I can tell you that I've probably put up a thousand of those little cubes and I've shown the "happy" clients their systems and walked away... (best part, usually forever as they are simple to operate and the service call usually involves telling the client to "hit the five man button on your remote and your rear speakers will come on").

So many Bose systems go out because...
1. The client comes in already knowing the name.
2. The salesperson, sensing an easy close and
contest winnings or spiffs, says "here you go,
sign here"... why talk past the close, thats
sales 101

Now, back on my own and not a Bose dealer, I find myself constantly working harder than I should have to to convince a client who has been "Boseified" that the offerings I have, that they haven't heard of, are a better option. In doing this, I never slam the product to the client. I seldom fail and when I do, I install the Bose and walk away, usually forever as they are simple to operate and the service call usually involves telling the client to "hit the five man button on your remote and your rear speakers will come on". Besides, I get lots of install referrals from the happy salespeople who are closer to the next Bose sponsored trip.

As a custom installer, I just feel that they've even tried to come into the custom arena the wrong way. Protocols mean nothing to Bose. Has anyone tried to put an SA-1 anywhere. How about that distibution preamp that is flat and has all of the RCA jacks coming out the top. Sorry but this is a butt-ugly design. The only props I can give them is that their stuff is incompatible with just about anything else including most remotes... hence more revenue for Bose. You can read anything you want to into my comments but like them or not, they are a smart marketing machine and as Eric says, know your competition!