My Kenwood VR 507 receiver gives me the option of selecting "large" or "normal" as the front, center and surround speakers. They do not define what exactly is large and what is normal? I have a 100 watt center 2 way center channel speaker. Is this large? My front speakers are 100 watt 3 way (12" woofer) floor speakers. My surround speakers are 30 watt pioneer one way speakers. Can someone help me understand what I should set these speakers to. Also should i set them differently according to what format I am listenining to i.e. Pro Logic, Dolby Digital etc.?

by large, they mean more aout the freq response,
Do your speakers go Low? Are they flat to 80 hz? If so then they are almost Large.

But...
Kenwood's receivers disable their subwoofer output when large mains are selected, (or at least my VR 309 does, so to use a sub, I have to select small).

An interesting point. If you have "large" main speakers why divert the LFE to a sub?

The "large" designation refers to the speaker's ability to reproduce bass frequencies. If a speaker is "full range", it is a large speaker. If it is a satellite, meant to be used with a separate woofer or subwoofer, it is a small speaker.

There is no definite rule here. You can, as always, experiment. The question is: do you want to keep the lows away from any of the speakers? I use the "do-I-hear-the-woofer-cones-bottoming-out-during-loud-passages?" method to decide, if it's not an obvious choice judging by the speaker itself.

A speaker with a 12" woofer can definitely handle "large". One with a 6" is most likely a "small" candidate. In between, you should try it either way. These settings are not normally changed for different surround formats, as they depend on the physical aspects of the speakers themselves.

Just remember that the lows have to be sent somewhere. Any speaker set to "small" will redirect the lows to another output, but which one depends on the decoder's bass management. Not all bass management systems are the same.

In my pre-pro, for instance, I set the center to small, because my center speaker will bottom out with a large setting, and the bass is re-directed to the L&R fronts, because my main speakers contain powered subs (I have the subwoofer set to "no").

I have the rears set to large, so my rear-center gets the rear bass info, and the ProLogic decoder I use for the rear-center extraction is set to 'center-large', and 'L&R-small', so my sides don't bottom out.

Don't forget, the LFE channel is a discrete signal that may or may not have the same, or lower, sound as the other channels. Sometimes, the LFE channel carries low-frequency noise, not carried in any other channel, that will be lost if all channels are set to small, and the sub out set to 'no', unless the mains are set to 'large'.

Larry

Hey Larry..I was wondering how that works..I've seen others do it but never actually tried the method myself.

I have an older Pro logic pre (carver C20V) that I'd like to try out.

Hey, Matt. I've described this in more detail in another thread. I honestly don't remember which one, but if you're interested in learning a bit about several different audio subjects, check out all of my posts.

This method is simple: use the PL decoder in 3-channel mode, connected to the rear L & R pre-outs as if they were the fronts, the 'main' outs to the surround amps as usual, and use the center out as a rear-center.

Larry

Matt,

Larry's detailed description is in a thread I started at [Link: remotecentral.com] The method is also described in the initial article I posted to that thread.

I've been meaning to ask a question, and this looks like a good time. Should I "always" have a subwoofer hooked up in order to hear the LFE output? If I understand Larry's post correctly the answer is "not if your mains are set to large."

On a related topic, "I'm" (WAF) planning to replace my Cerwin-Vega mains -- and their twin 15" woofers -- with smaller speakers; either a pair of bookshelfs or a satellite/sub setup. I also am running a CV dedicated LFE sub with dual 10" drivers.

When I "shrink" the mains, is there any advantage to buying additional subs to drive the L&R bass while continuing to send the LFE to my current dedicated sub? Or if I just set my mains to "small" and send ALL the low frequencies to my sub, will I be able to hear a difference?

-Bruce "still confused, but at a MUCH higher level." :)

Bruce: there is a definite advantage to having a sub when your Mains are small or bookshelf sized, but the advantages of having more than one sub are still under subjective consideration by many people.

Here are a couple of excellent articles that cover the Sub and LFE topic perfectly:

[Link: hometheaterhifi.com]

[Link: smr-home-theatre.org]

I'd like to add to Larry's comprehensive posting: It all boils down to this: Your Main speakers can still be set to reproduce bass at a certain level, while bass and LFE below that level is sent to a subwoofer. Setting your Mains to "small" does not automatically cut off all bass to those speakers; with any luck, your manual, or the company's support staff, will be able to tell you where the cut-off actually is.

In fact, you can still send LFE to the sub after setting your Mains to Large, depending on your receiver's capabilities in this area.

BTW, I haven't seen a system that uses "Normal" as a definer; it's always been "small". Perhaps Normal is a better moniker, since small seems to indicate "no bass", which is not true. ... Mike

Bruce,
The answer about 'always having a sub' is: Your understanding is correct; if your sub-out is set to 'no sub', any LFE info will be re-directed to the mains, and mixed with the L & R bass, as long as they're set to large. If they're set to small, then the LFE signals will go to whatever out IS set to large. In ALL outs are set to small, the LFE signal will get lost in the ozone, and not be reproduced at all.

Note: this is how my pre-pro handles bass. Not all bass mgt. circuits handle it the exact same; consult your manual.

Also, if all channels are set to small, and you DO have a sub, the 5 channels' bass info will be mixed with the LFE signal and fed to the sub, so you don't have to add subs to your L & R speakers, but your sub has to be able to handle the bass you're asking it to reproduce. Here, your ears (and seat-of-your-pants) are the determining factor.

I will say that some people (including myself) feel there's an advantage to stereo subs, even though bass is supposed to be non-directional. Following Definitive Technology's recommendations, I recently re-wired my subs: they used to be connected via interconnects with a Y connector to the mono LFE out. I changed my sub setting to 'no sub' which re-directs the LFE info to the mains, and replaced the links so the sub amps get both the LFE and normal stereo bass. Big difference.

Larry

Larry,

I have BP2006TL's (10" subs) as well as a separate 15" powered sub (its probably overkill, especially for the size of the room, but I had the sub first) do you think I should try those settings as well? Disconnecting the separate sub or not?

Don

Larry,

Thanks, I'll try that this weekend. I've sorta wondered if I was really doing the smartest thing by redirecting the bass away from my twin 15" woofers and instead driving it with a 10" subwoofer anyway... :)

I scrounged up a Polk 4a speaker, so I'm also hooking up my spare receiver to try out the "poor man's 6.1" this weekend. If I'm correct that the specification for the rear channels is that they are full range, but I only have tiny speakers back there, what do you think of wiring the subwoofer into the LFE on THAT receiver? Twin 15s in front and the dual 10s in the back, yum! I'll let you know.

-Bruce

Don, with the speakers you have, I'd try the 15" sub hooked to the LFE output, and the mains set to 'large'.

However, I would also try the BP's sub as I have mine now, with the LFE re-directed to the mains, and the internal amp connected via the links.

Let us know which method is preferable.

Larry

Bruce, Definitely try it. Don't forget to set the rears to 'large' in your main processor, and the center to 'large' and the mains to 'small' in the rear processor.

Larry

This message was edited by Larry Fine on 11/22/01 10:25.46.

If a speaker is "full range", it is a large speaker. If it is a satellite, meant to be used with a separate woofer or subwoofer, it is a small speaker.

Larry, my rear speakers, to the best of my knowledge, are 30W 1 way speakers. I don't think they have any base handling capability. So they should be set to normal, correct? Also the Kenwood VR 507 does send to the subwoofer when the mains are set to large if the Cinema/EQ mode is used.

So in other words, no speaker should ever be set to large unless it has the ability to handle bass. If this is correct, than why would one ever set a pair of 3-way floor speakers with 12" woofers (like mine) to small? My guess would be only if they had a VERY good sub, which I don't. I just have a little AIWA 8". It also looks like a set of rear surrounds should never be set to large.