I have seen that a bunch of people have posted about having higher end speakers ML and B&W...yet they are asking advice about buying receivers.

I would assume that they are spending alot more for speakers than for the receiver...why wouldn't you go the route of pre/pro and amp?

I know that when I made the switch to pre/pro and amp that it made a world of difference with my setup and I am don't have speakers that are as high end as ML and B&W.

So why would you spend 2-3K+ on a pair of speakers yet spend less than 1K on an amplification system? Thoughts....

Hey, good question, ttiger. For me the answer is simple: I can really hear the difference between speakers when testing them at a store; I can rarely hear the difference when switching amongst different receivers or separates.

I know it's politically incorrect for me to admit this. ... Mike

I know the answer for me is fairly simple "Money". I don't mind spending 2-3k on speakers that will last me a life time, but the last pre/pro amp I purchased lasted only 2 years because of new technology (no DTS ES etc..) I would rather spend around 1000 on an amp and upgrade every 2-3 years. When technology "slows" some and things like Fire Wire become the standard I will think about upgrading. Then again maybe in 2 years I will not have to worry about money!

Thanks,
Don

But if you buy Pre/Pro and an Amp, Tech only affects the Pre/Pro. If you are going to spend 1K on a receiver every couple of years why not bite the bullet spend 2-3K on a pre/pro and amp and then spend the 1K and on upgraded Pre/Pro.

I don't know of any dealers that won't take a well maintained Pre/Pro in trade for a new Pre/Pro. Cost would be about the same as buying a new receiver, plus you get the sound benefits of seperates....Tony

I honestly have not found a pre/pro & Amp for 2-3k. I am looking at the Denon 3802, or 4800 now, If you have a suggustion that would give me the same features in a pre/pro & Amp for 2-2.5K I would look at it.

Thanks
Don

In these days of the changing formats I'd be less inclined to go the pre/pro route. Sure they sound better. (although some of the receivers are coming quite close) Last year it was 5.1 this year it's 7.1 next year (who knows). So it's not just the pre/pro that becomes absolete these days. I know sure you can add amps as you please. But don't we have enough cable to patch the moon into our systems already.

Btw: I have had the dennon 3802 for a couple of weeks now and have been fairly pleased with it.

Hi Don
I picked up the Rotel Pre/Pro RSX 965 and the RB985 MKII 5x100 Amp for around 2K. I am not sure what the replacements for those models are but I know that Rotel is a very affordable high mid end MFG.

Hoffdog-I understand your point, however how many more speakers are we expected to be putting up? Also, it is only 6.1 officially. 7.1 is something that Mfgs are putting together-personally I prefer to listen to the Movies and music the way they were originally encoded. I am not a fan of matrixing channels to get new channels.
I would think a good 5 or 6 channel amp plus a second 2 channel would suffice in most instances. Unless of course you get into Bi-Amping your speakers....Tony

The new Rotel 976 pre/pro can be had for around $999.99 to $1200.00, depending on where you buy. Best of all, the version II has discrete power ON/OFF.

Rotel amps can be had for between $599.99 and $1300, again depending on where you buy, and the power output you desire.

[Link: rotel.com] -pre/pro
[Link: rotel.com] -amps

JJP

ttiger: My Onkyo TX-DS989 has, with the upgrade, all formats of 7.1 discrete channelling. And all the movies we get on DVD are re-mixed. The theatre sound-track is completely different, because of the number of speakers involved.

Hi Mike,
So you're saying that you have 7.1 discreet? How do you get the 7.1? I thought that both DTS and Dolby are 5.1 and 6.1 repectively? Who provides the guidelines for the mixing...and I have not seen and DVDs that are 6.1 or 7.1 for that matter.
Thanks for helping to try and clear this part up for me....Tony

OK, I looked at the Rotel's, but I still am not convinced that a Denon 4800 or 3802 won't provide me the same or close to the same sound quality, and it seems that the Denon has many extra features that the Rotel does not. I would be looking at extra money for a tuner at this point as well. I guess the best way to decide is to go down to my local store and test them both out side by side. I will let you know how that turns out. Thanks for all the advise and help!

Good Luck Don....happy audtioning!

Hi, ttiger.

The Onkyo has seven amps on board, and individual speaker outputs for each. The release version of the receiver included the "matrix" rear centre mode and a fake 7-channel matrix, like "surround stereo." But the upgrade, and their newer model, includes true discrete processing as well as some 6.1 fakaroonies.

But now that I look closely at the specs, I am having some confusion myself. For example, the European website (onkyonet.com) for Onkyo calls the discrete mode DTS-ES Discrete 6.1, not 7.1, as you pointed out (DTS actually licensed the technique from Dolby Labs). So how can it send two distinct signals, Left Rear Centre and Right Rear Centre, if it only has 6.1? Even though it uses 7 amps?

Here's what the DTS website has to say:

"DTS uses the name “ES” on its cinema decoder; others call the process “Surround EX”. Either set of letters stands for “Extended Surround”. Thus “ES” is the general term for DTS tracks with a back channel, and “ES 6.1 discrete” is the particular case where the back channel is discrete. The back channel is always matrixed into the LS and RS channels. A discrete back channel can optionally be encoded as well.

In the cinemas, this back channel is not a discrete channel, but is matrixed into the left and right surround channels.

A DTS-ES 6.1-discrete decoder will play the discrete back channel. It will also subtract the discrete back channel out of the matrixed LS and RS channels, restoring the LS and RS channels as independent.
Any DTS-ES track is fully compatible with 5.1 decoders because the back channel information is matrixed into the LS and RS channels and will thus be heard in and between the LS and RS speakers."

.... confused.... ... Mike

Hey Mike...you and me both! I am of the breed that I don't like using any type fo DSP that is not true to the disc...ie Dolby Digital/DTS for a DVD for 5.1. CDs 2 channel PCM or 5.1 if using a DTS or DVD audio disc I also don't listen to TV using any DSP fields (I use Sony as an example of how ludicrous it can get).

I think Yamaha also has a 7 channel DSP mode that does matrixing of some sort as well. I don't believe (I haven't had the time to check) that higher end Pre/Pros don't include stuff like 7.1. I know according to Rotel, they will not even be going to DTS ES or Dolby Digital 6.1 until all this 6.1 7.1..etc shakes out.

IMHO I think that we may eventualy get 3 Fronts (L,C,R), 3 Rears (L,C,R) and a Left Side and Right Side for a total of 8 discreet channels with a LFE channel the .1.

I agree 100% that things change too rapidlly, but I for one don't think that I will get enough improvement from a 6.1 to justify the cost of a new Pre/Pro or receiver. I didn't even buy Dolby Digital until it had been out for 2 years and 6.1 is still very very new.

Does anyone know for sure about the new formats and wether they will be encoded discretely?

Tony

Mike, others...

DTS-ES and THX-EX are 6.1 discrete for encoding. A 7.1 receiver takes #6 and sends it to two Back Surround speakers. Many people find that one speaker directly behind doesn't work well with the positioning of our ears, so splitting the signal off-axis a bit helps.

So 7.1 in official surround encoding formats is really 6.1 with 2 speakers for one of the channels. Not unlike using 2 subs for a large room.

But, of course, if I've built 7 channels of amps into my receiver (speaking as mfg, here), I'm definitely going to call it 7.1 even though no recorded format actually is that many channels.

And there are several DVDs with DTS-ES available. Several...not many...certainly not anything like dozens.