The subject header says it. I went to make an order for a new Denon AVR-3802 just now. The sales associate at the big store told me that because they were selling the unit at a price so far below the MSRP (~$800 on what he claimed MSRP was $1200), that Denon would refuse to honor the warranty.

Of course, for $200 more he offered to sell me a service plan.

I think I smell something... any thoughts gang?

-Jim

Jim,

No factory warranty statement I have ever read makes any reference to the price paid for the item. What about closeouts and clearances.


I am curious as to the store you were in. If you are accuratly representing the facts, then potentially you got a big case of consumer fraud. I suggest you put a microcassette recorder in your pocket and return to the store and see if you can get the same salesman to make the same statements.

Then contact FIRST the Attorney General consumers affairs division for your state, then notify DENON corporate, then the corporate office for the store you were in.

I will stay on-line for a bit in case you want to discuss this more.

PS..check first to make sure the laws in your state don't prohibit this type of recording, In Texas it is perfectly legal, and I believe most states. I am not an attorney and this should not be taken as legal advice, just one consumer trying to help another!

Also feel free to email me.

Thanks for your reply Mason,

I've decided that my first action will be to call Denon and describe the situation to them. As its past 5 PM Pacific time, I'll have to call them tomorrow.

In addition to what I explain above, the sales associate described that Denon would be able to trace the serial number to the store I bought it from. The store, BTW, was i4digital.com. Their price as reported by mysimon.com was the lowest available. However, it was mandatory to call them (even if you place in the online order basket, they were to call to arrange shipping).

I suspect, bait with lowest price... get you on the phone, make the hard sale.

I usually never go for service contracts. From what I understand, they are far more lucrative than the merchandise itself.

Okay... I'm going to take it up with Denon tomorrow and go from there.

-Jim

So this wasn't a walk-in store. CAUTION-In some states it is illegal to record a phone conversation unless BOTH parties are aware of the recording.

SO if you decide to do that check with the local authorities first.

You could see if they will mail you something regarding the warranty misinformation.

DO NOT HESITATE TO CONTACT YOUR STATE'S AG.

This is what I just found posted on Denon's site:

CONSUMER ALERT: Purchase your Denon Products only from a Denon Authorized Dealer. Denon carefully selects its authorized dealers to ensure that its high standards are maintained. The warranty on Denon Products purchased from an unauthorized source or reseller may not be valid.

So perhaps this store isn't a "Denon Authorized Dealer"

Why wouldn't they be? They do have a 3/3 star rating from Gomez... but wait!

Check Gomez's site to find follwing their "gomez certified" link:

[Link: gomez.com]

Certificate of Review

No Certification data exists for this firm

Return

Visit Gomez.com
_______________________________________

I believe I should alert the price engines on which i4digital posts. Hmmm seems likes mysimon is the only one I can find them on. Interesting, i4digital buys banner ads on mysimon...

This keeps getting stranger...

-James

Odd, indeed.

I would ask Denon to send you a copy of their warranty statement.

Actually... I went and grabbed a copy of Denon warranty for something else I'd purchased not too long ago. Sure enough, the warranty indicates this exclusion:

"Any product which is not purchased in the USA from an AUTHORIZED DENON DEALER... (NOTE: AUTHORIZED DENON DEALERS can be identified by an AUTHORIZED DENON DEALER sticker displayed in the stores. If you are uncertain as to whether a dealer is an AUTHORIZED DENON DEALER, please contact DENON."

So basically, just about any etailer where you can find a good deal on the equipment is likely to not be authorized. Makes me wonder if this is really Denon's racket afterall.

-Jim

Probably not a lot of help to you guys in the states, but over here in the UK, manufacturers AND retailers have an obligation to provide you with goods which are of a servicable quality for the purpose for which they are intended.

In effect, it means that everything you buy from a shop is implicitly warranteed by the retailer regrdless of what they may say about the guarantee on the product. It even stretches to covering us beyond the usual 12 month warrantee that comes with most products, although most retailers try to dodge responsibility because the law is a bit grey on their duty of care.

Is there any possibility that state / federal law gives you any similar rights?

Uh, guys, this has been a huge topic for ages. Denon, Yamaha, Klipsch, Marantz, etc. will not honor unauthorized dealer purchases. Go to any HT message board and do a search on unauthorized dealers.

Denon sets a price, if some grey market dealer wants to beat it, they are not required to honor the warranty. This is standard in the industry, get used to it. Phillips is trying to pull its Pronto Pros from certain stores to make sure they are sold at $999. Every manufacturer is fighting the internet discount stores.

Actually, most of these grey market dealers claim Denon will honor the warranty, even though they won't. Sounds like your experience is on the better side. Compare to Crazy Eddie.

I am going throught a similar dilemma - I would like to buy the 3802 (I was actually looking at the 3801, until the new model came out), and I saw the same post on Denon's website. The only authorized e-tailers are Tweeter and Good Guys - both of which sell at full retail price. If I remember correctly, The Good Guys will ship free with no tax (if you buy more than one item). Whoopie. I don't think that they even have the 3802 yet, but the 3801 was listed at $999. Tweeter lists the 3802 for $1199 - and you can't buy it online (I just checked the site).

Marco - the Uniform Commercial Code (UCC) of the US has an implied warranty of merchantability, which basically means that the goods must be fit for ordinary purposes for which such goods are used (i.e., the receiver should do what a normal person would expect it to do). However, if specifically done, a merchant can waive UCC implied warranties.

Additionally, many states have laws which vary state by state. In some states provide for such implied warranties; others do not.

Although I have not looked at the standard Denon warranty (it is not posted on their website), I suspect that Denon specifically disclaims any such implied warranties, and that the warranty it gives is limited to those who purchase from an authorized dealer. Most likely, there is a "choice of law" provision that makes the law of a particular state govern disputes. I would be very surprised if Denon chose a state that honored implied warranties.

Also, just so this isn't "easy," the "Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act," a federal statute, imposes additional restrictions on a seller’s ability to disclaim warranties that go beyond the limitations imposed by states or the UCC (The purpose of the statute is to make warranties on consumer products more understandable and enforceable; it prohibits disclaiming or modifying implied warranties in the sale of a consumer product if a written warranty is given).

In sum (I know, thank God it's almost over), the last thing you want to worry about is fighting with a huge corporation about whether they should fix your receiver due to an implied warranty. Suing (or threatening to sue) Denon is not really a viable option either - it would probably cost more to sure than to buy a new receiver! It copmes down to how much you are willing to pay for a warranty (no warranty, an e-tailer warranty or Denon's warranty).

By the way, even though I am a lawyer, I am not 'your' lawyer, and nothing I just wrote should be considered legal advice. Most of the stuff I just spouted came from the inernet, the two Bar exams I took (in two different states wiseguys) and law school four years ago. Accordingly, I could be wrong, or not completely correct. How is that for a disclaimer!

Chas

Chasmo,

Wow, thanks for the lesson.

I spoke with Denon today, Spiky is right:

Denon won't honor the warranty if its purchased from an unauthorized dealer. Seeing as "authorized" dealers offer it at price control levels, I see myself as having three options:

(1) Buy it cheap now, gamble that it won't break.

(2) Buy it now with a 3rd party service contract. Still might be cheaper than buying it from a 3rd party.

(3) Do no further business with companies like Denon.

I believe a company should back their warranty no matter where you buy it. They manufactered it, the whole sold it. I don't care how many other middle men there are, if its in the same boxed condition it left the factory, their warranty should be honored.

-Jim

I agree with Jim. I just took a look at etronics.com, and they have the 3802 for $804. If you add in shipping ($32) and a 5 year watrranty ($69 - as quoted on the site), the total is only $905! Much cheaper than $1199 at Tweeter!

I must admit, with the number of e-tailers going out of business these days, buying the warranty from someone other than the manufacturer might not be the way to go.

Anyway, food for thought. I think I'll wait a while longer and see how others like the receiver, etc.

Chasmo

if a manufacturer is getting paid for his equipment, no matter what the price it is actually sold at, what is the problem? What am I missing here?

I thought all the retailers bought at the same price more or less, volume buyers obviously getting a discount.