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Topic:
Toys (antenna) in the attic
This thread has 10 replies. Displaying all posts.
Post 1 made on Wednesday April 12, 2000 at 10:56
Matt
Historic Forum Post
Hi all:

I recently installed a Radio Crack VU-110 XR VHF,UHF,FM 110 mile, 100" antenna in my attic. I want to get local HDTV programming. The reception is almost non-existent (I get one channel very snowy and shadowy). I have an at-the-antenna amplifier and the signal is the same with or without it. All of my local stations have antennas within 30 miles of my home and I live fairly high on a hill.

My attic has foil backed insulation on the floor (only) and I installed my antenna about 20" from the main mast to the floor. My friend recommends raising the antenna height as much as possible away from the foil.

Is there a Dr. Yagi out there who has any suggestions? Will raising it help. Does anyone know how much a roof can attenuate a signal?

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks...

Matt

PS: Do HDTV OTA signals broadcast on UHF frequencies?
OP | Post 2 made on Wednesday April 12, 2000 at 16:46
Bet
Historic Forum Post
Matt, I am probably way over my head here, but I don't see the sense in getting HDTV on an over the air antenna. Can you get cable or Sattelite TV? I would think that any improvement by HDTV would be negated by using an antenna. I even notice a marked improvement from cable to Sattelite reception.

Just my 2 cents.
OP | Post 3 made on Wednesday April 12, 2000 at 16:58
Matt
Historic Forum Post
Bet:

Hi. My cable system doesn't carry HD signals yet (probably won't for a while) and DTV has very limited HD programming.

Even though OTA signals use an antenna, the signal is still digital, so there is no real degradation of the picture. If you have enough signal, the picture will be very sharp.

The local broadcasters seem to have embraced HDTV more than the cable company and DTV. I'd just hate to have to put the antenna outside though.

Thanks for the reply...

Matt
OP | Post 4 made on Thursday April 13, 2000 at 01:53
Daniel Tonks
Historic Forum Post
I can't help with your particular experience, except by saying I have a 15' antenna mounted on a 40' tower and reception is excellent on local stations, OK on distant ones (though I switched to cable a couple years ago -- the antenna is still there and functional). I'm in a valley and have no line-of-site with any of these transmitters.
OP | Post 5 made on Thursday April 13, 2000 at 02:52
Jeff
Historic Forum Post
I did the same thing Matt and I'm getting getting ready to do it the old fashioned way and put it on the roof. I started out with a $15 set of rabbit ears and a DTC-100. I was amazed that I was able to pull in 3 of the 4 local HDTV channels with the rabbit ears most of the time. So, I thought I'd buy the biggest antenna like you did and put it in the attic. Well now I only get two HDTV channels consistantly, but there was a major improvement on the VHF channels I must say.

BTW - Bet. The HDTV reception is digital and as soon as you have a strong enough signal to get a picture it is crystal clear. It is clearer than even the HDTV channels off the satellite. You will probably never get as good of a signal off the satellite because they won't allocate the bandwidth for it, they make more money off of selling more channels - not better ones. HDTV off of cable - not going to happen any time soon.

Jeff
OP | Post 6 made on Thursday April 13, 2000 at 08:40
Bet
Historic Forum Post
Well I guess I will shut up now! I just have nightmares whenever I think of getting TV reception over the air, but I guess that is old fashioned thinking. I grew up with antennas and thought the best thing ever was when we got cable reception and could watch channel 2 without that big line or ghosts on the screen.

I won't be getting an HDTV any time soon so hopefully they will have perfected it by then.
OP | Post 7 made on Thursday April 13, 2000 at 15:10
DanKurts
Historic Forum Post
Mat, et al:
I'll throw in 40 years antenna experience, and a year and a half with HDTV installs.
I share your frustration at reception attempts. There are many well intentioned people, that have experience in analog, that will give you wrong advice. Unless you've been in the HDTV trenches, it's a new ball game, new rules. This post will be long, but I want you folks to win at it, so bear with me.
Antennas in the attic rarely work as well as outside, away from roof or chimney, etc. You will almost always have some ghosting, even if you do get a picture. They will work on HDTV, if you're very close, because they eliminate the ghosting problem. Key is, how will you know? If you can get the signal with rabbit ears when you move them around the room, a large UHF antenna in the attic will probably help. But there are lots of caveats: the direction you want to get the signals from are all within a 20 degree or so spread from each other; you can get it away from the wood as much as possible; you use RG6; you don't have to point the antenna at your neighbors three story concrete house and you live in a one story house; you don't have a local UHF analog channel thats really strong; you're not in a gully because UHF is far more lin-of-site than VHF and there's lots more....
But to digress, the best way is to get it up and on the roof. You will, in most cases, pick up 2 to 3 times the signal or more. Roofs don't have a "fixed attenuation", but they generally do, a bunch!
Now the good news. Because most UHF yagi's have a reflector of some type, their front to back ratio, or rejection to a signal from the back side, is quite good. And because this is digital you're going for, it's even less of a problem. Therefore, I have installed many on the side of a house, where it's much less noticeable. You still want to be up as high as possible, gets away from noise sources, and you get the best chance at signal. If the side of house is at right angles, or close, to the towers, and you're not to far away, try this "bedspring", or one that looks like it, a 4221A by Channel Master.
[Link: cmnc.com]
If you have to aim it more off-angle, then try something like the Channel Master 4308 or Radio Shack makes a similar one for about $25. The beter way is with the 4248 Channel Master or Radio Shacks big UHF yagi, about $35, and mount it at least 3 ft up and away from roof, or anything else, on a mast. And last, run it through a UHF/VHF splitter, with the VHF side terminated with a 75 ohm resistor, and the UHF side connected to the receiver. This gets rid of any noise or signals outside of the UHF band that the antenna may receive. Mount the splitter close to the set.
One of the major keys to HDTV reception is signal to noise ratio, again a good reason to get it away from your house and attic, where there's lots of EMF, etc, floating around. You are FAR better off to use more antenna and NOT amplify, than vice-versa. This point I've observed many, many times trying to get difficult sites to work. The Terk super-gee-whiz $400 job has been put to shame many times with a Radio Shack special. Its also why I do NOT recommend sharing a downlead with satellite. The DC power they run on is not that clean, and you can pick up odd harmonics that will kill a HDTV signal, even though it will look fine on a meter.
Over the air reception has always been better than cable, when there are no ghosting problems from a difficult location. Cable has to contend with adjacent channel interferance, which the FCC won't allow over the air, and the noise factor of each in-line amplifier before it gets to your house, not to mention a bunch connections and taps. Satellite, and probably cable if they ever do it, uses compression which degrades the signal, so they can get more from the limited bandwidth. Satellite is the only answer for some locations, and it will be a while before local HDTV is going to be beamed down to you, like some areas that now get local analog channels.
Last, if all else fails, try to use the services of someone in your area that has been in the trenches. Try asking the high end retailers who they use, ask for customer references, too. It takes special signal strength meters and a lot of local terrain know-how to make it work in the difficult areas. Beleive me, I have been humbled and surprised many times by what did and didn't work. Your initial efforts could be very inexpensive, and some of the investment could be carried on to a professional install, so if you feel up to it, give it a go. If not, compare the small investment in an installed antenna to the cost of the set and multiply by the number of hours and years you will get pleasure from it all, and if done right, antennas require no maintenance for 15 years or more!
Good luck, and feel free to e-mail me with any questions you may have. My way of saying thanks to all of you, and Mr.Tonks, too, that have helped me with my Pronto questions and more!
Hope this helps. If you have any questions, feel free to send e-mail.
OP | Post 8 made on Thursday April 13, 2000 at 18:30
David B.
Historic Forum Post
My experience includes installing an antenna in my attic and getting GREAT reception on all the TVs in my house but one. They all were connected thru single unsplit sections of RG59 cable to a 4-way splitter that was then connected to the antenna's output.

"Why should three TVs get much improved reception and one not show any improvement?", I wondered.

The answer turned out to be old cable ends. After cutting off the old connector and 6" or so of cable from BOTH ends, then installing new connectors the reception thru that cable improved to compare with the others in the house.

Lesson? Your lack of obvious improvement over rabbit ears may simply be that the signal isn't getting from the antenna in the attic to your TV. Try new cable or at least new ends on the cable. Follow the cable path if you can and make sure it hasn't been crimped, slashed, bent sharply or cut along it's course. A single nail accidently thru a cable can short or cut the circuit.

My two cents.

Dave
OP | Post 9 made on Friday April 14, 2000 at 02:15
Jeff
Historic Forum Post
Thanks Dan & Dave for your professional opions on the antenna situation. I think I'll try a better cable and after that I may go up to the Roof. The cable I used was probably wrong as it was already there from the guy I bought the house from and it's a flat cable too.

Jeff
OP | Post 10 made on Friday April 14, 2000 at 21:53
Joe
Historic Forum Post
That flat cable is probably 300 ohm. RG-59 & RG-6 coax is 75 ohm. How are you connecting this flat cable to your TV?
OP | Post 11 made on Saturday April 15, 2000 at 13:31
Jeff
Historic Forum Post
Joe,

With one of those little 300-75 ohm converters.


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