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Let me simplify my question....
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Post 1 made on Tuesday March 6, 2012 at 16:34
mobes53
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I have 3 pairs and possibly another pair in the future of these Proficeint AW650 indoor outdoor loundspeakers for a garage and garden setup. [Link: proficientaudio.com]

The speakers are 4 ohm rated and 150 watts.  What is the best way to figure out how much power i need to properly run all these speakers? What is the minimum watts per channel needed for 150 speakers?

Will a "AVR" be suficient or do I need an auxilary amp as well?

-Thanks for any and all assistance!
Post 2 made on Wednesday March 7, 2012 at 03:28
djy
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FYI

The link address is actually correct; however, clicking on it takes one to a Proficient "404 page not found." Not sure why; though I suspect it may have something to do with that mysterious semicolon.

For those of a curious nature...

[Link: proficientaudio.com]

Last edited by djy on March 8, 2012 04:11.
Post 3 made on Thursday March 8, 2012 at 03:54
Ernie Gilman
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Interesting. Both links worked for me.

As to the question, how many watts you need depends on the efficiency of the speakers. The "150 watts" part means don't expect to feed one of these speakers more than that.

Efficiency is shown as 89 dB, one watt at one meter. What's not obvious is that most indoor speakers run at about one watt or less for most music, especially background music. Outdoor speakers' sounds are not contained in a room, so more power is needed; outdoors there is usually more noise, so yet more power is needed.

I'd want to be able to feed at least sixty watts to each speaker. It's been said that six to ten dB louder seems like twice as loud to the ear; six dB more than sixty watts is 240 watts, and ten dB more than sixty watts is 600 watts.

Do you have ANY amp at all? Try one out!

The average AVR is optimized for surround sound, and often has a second zone that, in many people's opinions, should not be used to run more than two pairs of speakers.

I feel like I'm rambling, and it's late. If this inspires any questions, ask away -- it'll help focus the answers.
A good answer is easier with a clear question giving the make and model of everything.
"The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place." -- G. “Bernie” Shaw
Post 4 made on Thursday March 8, 2012 at 05:02
djy
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On March 8, 2012 at 03:54, Ernie Gilman said...
Interesting. Both links worked for me.

Ah! I do suspect the mice have been at work.

When I came here last night Mobes link had a semicolon after it as it does in his other post, and as I've recreated below.

  [Link: proficientaudio.com]

What I couldn't understand though, not really having the time to dig too deeply, was that said semicolon didn't show up when "quoting" or viewing the post code.

This morning, however, I've checked the page source code for this, and the other thread, and found that his post in the latter is liberally sprinkled with these things, but not so here, or not so any longer.
OP | Post 5 made on Thursday March 8, 2012 at 20:18
mobes53
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Thank you Ernie for your response!!! Good info for me so far.

I haven't picked out any kind of receiver or amplifiers yet. I wanted to see what suggestions anyone had for me on what to get. I have looked into stereo receiver instead of an AVR because video and surround sound are not an issue. I was thinking that there is probably a way to get a "receiver" of some sort to use the different types of media (iPod dock, radio, cd...) and then have an auxiliary amp running the speakers.

Like I stated before,

Zone1= 2 pairs of loudspeakers in a large garage.
Zone2= 1 pair of loudspeakers outside in a garden area.

I am not sure if it is a good match but, the Crown XLS1000 seems like an amp that could handle the job nicely. Am I incorrect?? Only thing I could see wrong is the noise from the fan is unknown. The price is nice too...  [Link: crownaudio.com];

Another part of my question is volume control.  How can I control volume remotely, for 2 zones with an external amp setup?? Impedence matching VC? RF remote (I have used URC for other installs)?? Do the pre outs to the amp have to be variable vol levels?

Lots of questions, I know... But thank you for the help! As they say, "Long time listener, first time caller!" I have learned so much from everyone on this forum!
Post 6 made on Thursday March 8, 2012 at 21:13
djy
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Mobes,

I think I'm going to have to get you one of these...



There's no need to use them: doing so has confused your link.

[Link: crownaudio.com]
OP | Post 7 made on Thursday March 8, 2012 at 21:34
mobes53
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Ok, sorry about the link issue. I am really not sure what I am doing wrong. I have done it the same way for a long time and have never had any complaints. I click on the link and it goes exactly where I intended. I am still stumped on what the issue is.......

I am not sure why ";" is getting in there...
Post 8 made on Thursday March 8, 2012 at 22:25
djy
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Curiouser and curiouser.

What browser do you use? I ask because if you're not actually adding them yourself (that's the "&nb..;" tags) something else must be doing it, and it's that that the mysterious semicolon is indicating.

As a matter of interest, I've tried your links in Firefox (my default), IE, Chrome, Safari and Opera, and Opera is the only one that links correctly.
OP | Post 9 made on Friday March 9, 2012 at 01:20
mobes53
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I am using Safari. I will try something different next link I do.
OP | Post 10 made on Saturday March 10, 2012 at 13:54
mobes53
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Any more thoughts on my project??
OP | Post 11 made on Thursday March 15, 2012 at 22:50
mobes53
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I want to use a stereo receiver to run 2 zones. For zone 1, should I use the receiver's amp to power one zone and an external amp to run zone 2? Or can I run both zones through the external amp for better power capabilities? I think zone 2 would go to the line out for zone 2 but, where would zone 1 hook to the amp?

Am I just kicking a dead horse here??

Last edited by mobes53 on March 17, 2012 00:41.
Post 12 made on Monday March 19, 2012 at 16:57
Ernie Gilman
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On March 15, 2012 at 22:50, mobes53 said...
I want to use a stereo receiver to run 2 zones.

Why? I find this kind of comment among people who have researched and have decided that they know what they need (or will put up with whatever happens) as well as among people who make a decision and hope it does what they want.

One thing is that a friend installer once put in a two-zone system using, I believe, a Denon 987 (don't remember the prefix, but it's a stereo receiver). Her family room runs off of Speaker A. Speaker B runs to a 6-output speaker switch/volume control combo such as the Sonance SS6VC. Speakers running off of this are a pair each in the kitchen, living room, north patio, and south patio. She never cranks the music, but she has never had a problem getting the speakers loud enough.

For zone 1, should I use the receiver's amp to power one zone and an external amp to run zone 2?
As I suggested earlier, you should try something out and see if it suffices. We can suggest all day long, but we need your feedback on some actual thing to give you any more advice.

If you're going to be okay with volume controls all near the receiver, get a multiple output switcher with volume controls. That unit will do the impedance matching. If you're going to have volume controls near the speakers, get impedance matching volume controls (most VCs that we installers use only come as impedance matchers, but you set them at X1 and that's a plain old eight ohm volume control).  In that case, run four conductors for each pair from the main receiver location to each volume control location.  DO NOT run wires out in parallel.  If you have four sets of zone two speakers, you should have four sets of wires going out from the main location.  These are called "home runs" and have the virtue that no matter what you do, the wiring is correct for it.

Your first trial should be to run the switch off of Speaker B as my friend's client above. If it works for you, you're done. If it's not good enough, then, for now, you've got a working system that you can improve by adding another amp.

Or can I run both zones through the external amp for better power capabilities?

This is curious to me. I would want the main zone to run through the receiver and the second zone to go through the external amp, if you decide you need one.

This brings up another issue.  Zone 2 is often designated for a type of system where the main room plays one program and all the rest of the other rooms can play a second program (same as each other).  That's why zone 1 just comes off of the receiver, and it's why you can't use the receiver for zone 2: you have to get into pricey A/V amps to get one with an internal zone 2 amp that can play something different from zone 1, and even then, the manufacturer tells you to limit that to one pair of speakers in zone 2.

I think zone 2 would go to the line out for zone 2 but, where would zone 1 hook to the amp?

See, that's what's curious. If you have a zone 2 output, then yes, that might go to the zone 2 amp. But zone 1 output IS the receiver's speaker outputs.

If your receiver's zone 2 is selectable as different from zone 1, and you always want them to be the same, you'll have to select them to be the same every time you switch.  This is tedious and wastes the money you spent on getting a unit with zone 2 out.

If you want them to be the same, then your receiver has to have a record out that is active for all inputs, and your inputs all have to be wired with analog inputs; then you take a record output, feed it to the second zone amp, and adjust the volume of the second zone amp so that every one of your pairs of speakers will play as loud as you need it to.

Am I just kicking a dead horse here??

Nope. You're just not letting the horse up and seeing if it trots as nicely as you want. You're holding it down and asking it how fast it can go. It can't -- you're holding it down.

If you have more to say, please say it here and then drop me a PM.  I like to share the conversation with everyone, but I don't come to this forum very often.
A good answer is easier with a clear question giving the make and model of everything.
"The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place." -- G. “Bernie” Shaw
OP | Post 13 made on Thursday March 22, 2012 at 14:31
mobes53
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Thank you for all the input. I know I am stepping on the horse. Just wanted a few thoughts from you guys before I throw $$ at the situation. I am going to get the Denon DRA-697CI for this project. It looks like it will fit the bill.

Thanks again. I will let you know how it turns out.
OP | Post 14 made on Sunday April 29, 2012 at 13:34
mobes53
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Just to update those who are interested. I ended up using the Denon DRA-697CI. connected two pairs of the loudspeakers and they sound great! I then added a external amplifier to the zone 2 pre out to go to the garden area. Then added a volume control out there and another pair of the loudspeakers. They also sound great! I was very pleased and so was the customer! 

Thanks for all of your input. I always seem to learn something new every time I log in to this site!


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