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Topic:
Toronto & Buffalo HDTV reception...
This thread has 3494 replies. Displaying posts 2341 through 2355.
Post 2,341 made on Saturday November 21, 2009 at 23:35
wogster
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I built a home made 4 bay antenna, using instructions from online, each wire of the bowtie is 7" long. Higher channels come in great, lower ones not, 18,19 poorly 20 is okay (CBLT-DT 5-1), but just wondering if I add a reflector, how far it should be behind the bows, and whether it would be best flat, or shaped, like a bowl. Strangely enough, 29 should be coming in, but doesn't. Doesn't help that I live in a basement, and can not put anything outside.

Anyone have any ideas, I live in Toronto, in the Bathurst & Sheppard area.
Post 2,342 made on Sunday November 22, 2009 at 20:19
BillFromGI
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On November 21, 2009 at 23:35, wogster said...
Strangely enough, 29 should be coming in, but doesn't. Doesn't help that I live in a basement, and can not put anything outside.

Anyone have any ideas, I live in Toronto, in the Bathurst & Sheppard area.

Channel 29 (WUTV) transmits on UHF channel 14. Try using wires/bowties longer than 7 inches (try 9-1/2 inches). Longer bowties will help capture the lower frequency.

If you add a reflector, make sure it isn't further than 4 inches away from the bowties. Good Luck!
Post 2,343 made on Sunday November 22, 2009 at 21:52
wogster
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On November 22, 2009 at 20:19, BillFromGI said...
Channel 29 (WUTV) transmits on UHF channel 14. Try using wires/bowties longer than 7 inches (try 9-1/2 inches). Longer bowties will help capture the lower frequency.

If you add a reflector, make sure it isn't further than 4 inches away from the bowties. Good Luck!

Would it help to use 2 at 9 1/2 inches and the other 2 at 7" so that I don't lose the stations at the top end?
Post 2,344 made on Monday November 23, 2009 at 12:09
donnyjaguar
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Its worth a try. Or you could have the bottom cut for channel 14, the top for channel 69 and the two middle ones for 32 & 51?
Donny Jaguar
Post 2,345 made on Monday November 23, 2009 at 18:10
BillFromGI
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7 inches bowties optimize (peaks) the antenna for UHF 69. Longer length equals lower peak. You could make them 10 inches and if they don't work well you can cut 1/2" off each bowtie and try again. Hope that makes sense.. .

Donny, I do not think you can mix lengths like that. Pretty sure they all have to be one length or it won't resonate properly..
Post 2,346 made on Monday November 23, 2009 at 18:29
wogster
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On November 23, 2009 at 18:10, BillFromGI said...
7 inches bowties optimize (peaks) the antenna for UHF 69. Longer length equals lower peak. You could make them 10 inches and if they don't work well you can cut 1/2" off each bowtie and try again. Hope that makes sense.. .

Donny, I do not think you can mix lengths like that. Pretty sure they all have to be one length or it won't resonate properly..

Thinking here if 7" peaks at  69, and 10" peaks at 14, then logic would state that the ideal would be to split the difference which would peak at around 41-42, hey maybe 36 from Hamilton would come in then....

What I think I will do, tomorrow I will replace the ties with 10" ones, then if I lose the top, I'll lop off 1/2 inch, and see how that works.....    Frustrating thing is, the other Buffalo stations higher up the dial don't come in either (grrrr).  Explains though why channels <40 don't come in well, except 20 which I guess is quite powerful.....

Last edited by wogster on November 23, 2009 19:00.
Post 2,347 made on Wednesday November 25, 2009 at 10:47
Nueatit
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Was looking at upgrading my elderly mom's HD tv (minus tuner) to digital and placed old rabbit ears connected to a digital HD set top box in south facing bay window ground floor, all T.O. channels came in strong and even chn 23.

Mounted a wall mounted pipe to reach above roof, added a fancy amplified gain "yagi" with built-in rotator, rabbit ears worked better, lost two T.O. channels and chn 23.

Checked design of this antenna, basic low band folded dipoles, high band fold open dipole plus gain ampilfier, directors are plastic and do nothing, no reflector and no f/b ratio effect.

In my opinion stay away from these antennas, with descriptions such as "MOTORIZED VHF UHF OUTDOOR HDTV HD ROTOR TV HDTV ANTENNA selling for $48 or so on various mass selling sites.

Will install a 4-bay bow tie antenna and see how it works.
Post 2,348 made on Wednesday November 25, 2009 at 20:13
wogster
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On November 25, 2009 at 10:47, Nueatit said...
Was looking at upgrading my elderly mom's HD tv (minus tuner) to digital and placed old rabbit ears connected to a digital HD set top box in south facing bay window ground floor, all T.O. channels came in strong and even chn 23.

Mounted a wall mounted pipe to reach above roof, added a fancy amplified gain "yagi" with built-in rotator, rabbit ears worked better, lost two T.O. channels and chn 23.

Checked design of this antenna, basic low band folded dipoles, high band fold open dipole plus gain ampilfier, directors are plastic and do nothing, no reflector and no f/b ratio effect.

In my opinion stay away from these antennas, with descriptions such as "MOTORIZED VHF UHF OUTDOOR HDTV HD ROTOR TV HDTV ANTENNA selling for $48 or so on various mass selling sites.

Will install a 4-bay bow tie antenna and see how it works.

Amplifiers don't help the actual antenna, the antenna has what it has, there is no ability to get more then that.  Where an amplifier helps is to compensate for line loses.  For example the antenna is on the south side of the house on the roof, the cable comes down, goes along the side and in beside a window to the TV in the basement on the North side of the house.  The cable has a 4dB loss along it's length.  You put a 3dB amplifier half way along, so from the antenna to the amplifier there is a 2dB loss, and from the amplfier to the TV there is a 2dB loss, you put another 3dB amplifier right before a splitter that splits the signal between the TV and VCR, which again costs 2db.    Now with the 2 amplifiers you suffer only a 2db loss from antenna to TV, rather then a 6dB loss.  2dB loss and you still get 4 bars, a 5dB loss and you get a signal to weak message from the digital tuner.
Post 2,349 made on Thursday November 26, 2009 at 10:02
Nueatit
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Wogster

Thanks for the info but my thrust was the misleading advertisement of this "jagi" antenna with directors, a total of 5 plastic, useless pieces. A normal antenna of this size would have about 6 to 9 dB gain, then this can be amplified to overcome cable loss or insensitivity of the frontend tuner. The basic folded dipole has 1.5 dBi gain, not very much to amplify.

I will stick to directive/gain antenna with known rf patterns and if needed add the external mast mount amplifier with required gain & noise figure (2 dB at least), cheap amps are 5dB noise figures and not too good on weak signals.
Post 2,350 made on Thursday November 26, 2009 at 18:27
hd fan
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Wogster how would you explain then why I had to use a 3 stage low noise home built pre-amp back in Havana to get the US stations (Even Channels from FT Myers and Odds from FT Lauderdale/Miami). I guess I should have saved the hazard of asking a family member to pass the little high Ft low noise NPN transistors through Cuban customs then. I had a short cable run (30 to 50 ft) and a 2 m parabolic UHF antenna. Consider Havana is 90 miles from Key West and 180 miles from the transmitting towers, beleive me without the pre amp most days you would have no signal , and with it , most days throught out the year even in that almost all summer year long you would have to get used to a 1 or 2 second long fading or a grainy picture.

But anyways this is a free country and anyone is free to say or type anything on the free internet.
Post 2,351 made on Thursday November 26, 2009 at 20:30
wogster
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On November 26, 2009 at 18:27, hd fan said...
Wogster how would you explain then why I had to use a 3 stage low noise home built pre-amp back in Havana to get the US stations (Even Channels from FT Myers and Odds from FT Lauderdale/Miami). I guess I should have saved the hazard of asking a family member to pass the little high Ft low noise NPN transistors through Cuban customs then. I had a short cable run (30 to 50 ft) and a 2 m parabolic UHF antenna. Consider Havana is 90 miles from Key West and 180 miles from the transmitting towers, beleive me without the pre amp most days you would have no signal , and with it , most days throught out the year even in that almost all summer year long you would have to get used to a 1 or 2 second long fading or a grainy picture.

But anyways this is a free country and anyone is free to say or type anything on the free internet.

Did you ever try putting the amplifier down the line a little, either way, the amplifier isn't going to boast the antenna input, it's going to compensate for line losses on the cable, between the antenna and the receiver.  I have one antenna that has a built in amplifier at the antenna and it's a cable run of about 5', you know you can turn up the amplifier as high as it goes, from off to full on, really doesn't make any difference in the signal.  Mind you it's a crappy antenna from what we used to call radio shack. 
Post 2,352 made on Thursday November 26, 2009 at 23:02
hd fan
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Ok, I give up , I must have had a very bad day today, let me get some sleep then and recharge. Will see tomorrow what the day brings.
Post 2,353 made on Sunday November 29, 2009 at 09:49
Nueatit
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Hello Guys

With over 30 years rf experience in paging, mobile, cellular, microwave,etc.,
lets get this amplifier issue straight. An amplifier can only improve the performance of a system if:

1) The input signal is above the noise threshold of the amplifier
2) There is an incoming rf signal (passive antenna gain)
3) The frontend of a receiver does not have pre-amplification or poor sensitivity
4) The amplifier does not get overloaded to distortion

If all of these conditions are met, the amplifier AT the antenna output will help the system performance and also overcome losses in the co-axial cable. Under certain conditions an amplifier further down the chain may help, only if the receiver has poor sensitivity.

The old saying one cannot amplify an RF signal that does not exist or is in the noise floor. ( Zero times 28 dB gain is still zero)
Post 2,354 made on Sunday November 29, 2009 at 22:18
nt300
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UPDATE: I got my 2 spreadsheets confused. One spread sheet has difference between a pre-amp and no pre-amp and the other is difference between different hights & directions of my antenna. Sorry. Here is the UPDATE:

Before / After Pre-Amp w/ Channel Master 7777
Most affected channels with the Pre-Amp:
CH. 5-1 - Signal Strength = 83/94 - dB = 27/30 - CBC HD - CN Tower Toronto
CH. 9-1 - Signal Strength = 76/77 - dB = 20/23 - CTV HD - CN Tower Toronto
CH. 11-1 - Signal Strength = 83/90 - dB = 27/31 - E! HD - Hamilton
CH. 17-1 - Signal Strength = 84/88 - dB = 28/28 - PBS HD - Grand Island, Buffalo
CH. 17-2 - Signal Strength = 84/88 - dB = 28/28 - PBS SD - Grand Island, Buffalo
CH. 17-3 - Signal Strength = 84/88 - dB = 28/28 - Think Bright - Grand Island, Buffalo
CH. 23-1 - Signal Strength = 74/92 - dB = 24/29 - The CW HD - Grand Island, Buffalo
CH. 25-1 - Signal Strength = 78/88 - dB = 20/25 - CBC-F HD - CN Tower Toronto
CH. 29-1 - Signal Strength = 58/94 - dB = 20/29 - Fox29 HD - Grand Island, Buffalo
CH. 41-1 - Signal Strength = 33/55 - dB = 14/20 - Global HD - CN Tower Toronto
(Global HD is a weird one, it should improve greatly when it goes from 3kW to the new stronger 100kW and a higher tower.)
CH. 44-1 - Signal Strength = 71/73 - dB = 23/23 - OMNI.2 HD - CN Tower Toronto
CH. 57-1 - Signal Strength = 54/71 - dB = 14/23 - City TV HD - CN Tower Toronto
CH. 66-1 - Signal Strength = 62/71 - dB = 17/23 - Sun TV HD - CN Tower Toronto

Without the Pre-Amp, I could never get the channels bellow or they came in with real bad signal problems:

CH. 2-1 - Signal Strength = 56 - dB = 22 - NBC HD - South Wales, Buffalo
CH. 2-2 - Signal Strength = 55 - dB = 19 - NBC Universal Sports - South Wales, Buffalo
CH. 2-3 - Signal Strength = 55 - dB = 19 - Retro TV Network - South Wales, Buffalo
CH. 4-1 - Signal Strength = 80 - dB = 23/26 - CBS HD - Colden, Buffalo
CH. 7-1 - Signal Strength = 88 - dB = 23/25 - ABC HD - Colden, Buffalo
CH. 49-1 - Signal Strength = 70 - dB = 23/23 - MyTV HD - Wyoming, Buffalo
CH. 64-1 - Signal Strength = 40 - dB = 14/16 - OMNI.1 HD - CN Tower Toronto


Not watchable, way too much picture corruption. But I don't care anyway. I just wanted to show how far Jamestown is and I still got some sort of signal from it.
CH. 26-1 - Signal Strength = 40 - dB = 15 - TCT HD - Jamestown
CH. 33-1 - It scans, but no picture for some reason?
CH. 33-2 - It scans, but no picture for some reason?
CH. 33-3 - It scans, but no picture for some reason?

Last edited by nt300 on December 5, 2009 14:29.
Toronto, ON. Canada - Hi Def Rulz!
CM 4228HD w/ CM 7777 Pre-Amp! 20' Mast!
Post 2,355 made on Sunday November 29, 2009 at 22:42
little-infinity
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Nothing too exciting on 26-1 unless you're really into religous programming.

33-1 is the same as 2-1, so not seeing what the issue is. 2-1 is actually the virtual channel of 33-1. if you are not getting 33-1, how are you getting 2-1?

Could be something with the tuner, I wouldn't worry.
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