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Genelec Speakers?
This thread has 44 replies. Displaying posts 31 through 45.
Post 31 made on Thursday January 28, 2021 at 06:11
buzz
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On January 13, 2021 at 16:11, mrtristan said...
...What I know is I hate reviewers in magazines and website who critisize wifi and electronics while having no technical, scientific or engineering backgrounds and people put a lot of weight on their opinions.

I had personal experience with one of the reviewers and he had a perforated eardrum. He perceived bass differently than normal people. We had a couple lengthy sessions while he selected his speakers -- that had the right amount of bass (for him). He then wrote about these speakers in his review, commenting on their bass.
Post 32 made on Thursday January 28, 2021 at 06:28
buzz
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On January 28, 2021 at 03:21, ErikU said...
Why wouldn't you want to use the same monitors as the mastering engineer?

The music sounds different depending on where one sits in the hall. While demonstrating speakers I watch the listener's physical reaction. If they are a rear hall person and I play a bright speaker the listener will pull back slightly because the rear hall sound is more mellow. The inverse is the front hall person who will lean into the sound if I play a mellow speaker.

Someone who regularly plays in an orchestra tends to want a bright speaker that will emphasize the close-up working sounds of the instruments. These sounds are related to technique and this is very interesting to this class of listener. These listeners tend to prefer close miked recordings too.
Post 33 made on Thursday January 28, 2021 at 07:47
mwstorch
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As I read here often, I am trying to contribute more this year. I have learned a lot by reading and would like to improve at giving back to the RC community.

I have installed Genelec systems (currently listening to a pair on my desktop) and have been consistently impressed with the sound quality (there is a reason they are used in so many recording venues).

My issue with Genelec is not the performance but how their product line works (or doesn't) for my business. We install a fair amount of inwall speakers and while the Genelecs sound good, they only offer 2 SKUs of inwall and the grilles are only average-looking (to be polite).

Their bookshelf-style speakers, again sound great, have been a bit of an installation challenge for us as each speaker, being powered, also needs 120volt power at each location. Not rocket surgery but it does complicate the install.

We also found ourselves using other brands of subs in many of the installations and maybe its a bit OCD on my part, but I do prefer to install a completely branded system.

As much as I respect the quality of the Genelec product, we have moved on to using Pro Audio (and Theory) as our go-to speaker/amplifier choice. Their systems sound better (IMO) than the Genelec, they have more choices of speakers (in and out of wall), more subs, more amps, do not need power at each speaker, are fully committed to the home market, etc.

My opinion is that Genelec is more interested in what they do best (recording and mastering studios) than the home market and I think their product line (and marketing, etc.) reflect this.

Feel free to contact me directly if you want to discuss my experiences.

Best,

M
Post 34 made on Thursday January 28, 2021 at 10:00
highfigh
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On January 28, 2021 at 03:21, ErikU said...
I'm still confused. Why wouldn't you want to use the same monitors as the mastering engineer? Sure, the room will make a huge difference, but I have spent my career in mastering environments, and the most common monitor is Genelec. These are in rooms designed by acousticians, any they are amazing.

The same applies to other things like, cable, DAC's, displays, etc. If Belden 9451 cable is what the engineer mixed on, why would you want something like monster cable? I think many of the passive speakers and amps used in the consumer market are the equivalent of monster cable.

What's the point, if they're going in a room that's acoustically crap?

We're hedging our bets by choosing equipment that is known to be better than average, or excellent. If it sounds bad, it's going to be due to something that may be out of our control and if we have the knowledge and expertise, we can offer to address these things, for a price. Since we didn't cause the bad sound, it's not for us to do it at no cost. If someone only wants to have bare walls, floors, no window treatments on window curtain walls and only hard furniture with leather covering, the bad sound is on them, not us.

Why would ANYONE want Monster Cable? MC sucks. IMO. However, as long as the cables are neutral to a high degree, they really shouldn't sound very different.

I think the size of some cables is funny. You mentioned 9451 and that whole cable with jacket is smaller diameter than a single conductor (with insulation) in some others that are called 'high-end'.

Using speakers that were designed to be used in rooms that have been designed for specific acoustics should/damn well better sound great, or at least, reveal every detail and there's a difference, as you know- this is especially true in the rooms used for the basic tracks but the mastering room can be very different and it's there, that the audio 'sweetening' happens.

I can't begin to estimate the number of times I was told that someone "wants to hear it the same as they did in the studio". Can't happen- too many other variables.
My mechanic told me, "I couldn't repair your brakes, so I made your horn louder."
Post 35 made on Thursday January 28, 2021 at 10:06
highfigh
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On January 28, 2021 at 07:47, mwstorch said...
My issue with Genelec is not the performance but how their product line works (or doesn't) for my business. We install a fair amount of inwall speakers and while the Genelecs sound good, they only offer 2 SKUs of inwall and the grilles are only average-looking (to be polite).

Their bookshelf-style speakers, again sound great, have been a bit of an installation challenge for us as each speaker, being powered, also needs 120volt power at each location. Not rocket surgery but it does complicate the install.


As much as I respect the quality of the Genelec product, we have moved on to sing Pro Audio (and Theory) as our go-to speaker/amplifier choice. Their systems sound better (IMO) than the Genelec, they have more choices of speakers (in and out of wall), more subs, more amps, do not need power at each speaker, are fully committed to the home market, etc.

My opinion is that Genelec is more interested in what they do best (recording and mastering studios) than the home market and I think their product line (and marketing, etc.) reflect this.

Feel free to contact me directly if you want to discuss my experiences.

Best,

M

I don't think they're trying to dominate the CI market or make interior detonators happy.

My computer doesn't like the link for your company- any ideas? Said it's a security risk.

If speaker manufacturers wanted people to use someone else's sub with their products, they probably wouldn't make subwoofers. Many people don't set up the speakers in the way that is recommended anyway, so I wouldn't expect them to use the whole system.
My mechanic told me, "I couldn't repair your brakes, so I made your horn louder."
Post 36 made on Thursday January 28, 2021 at 10:55
tomciara
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My personal experience is that it is a small percentage of consumers that like truly flat sound. If you flatten out a room, it may sound too “neutral” to them.

If you go back to two channel days, the bass/treble/loudness got considerable tweaking.

If you belong to any two channel vintage groups now, and you see pictures of systems with graphic equalizers, they will almost always have the “smiley face” adjustments in play.
There is no truth anymore. Only assertions. The internet world has no interest in truth, only vindication for preconceived assumptions.
Post 37 made on Thursday January 28, 2021 at 11:33
highfigh
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On January 28, 2021 at 10:55, tomciara said...
My personal experience is that it is a small percentage of consumers that like truly flat sound. If you flatten out a room, it may sound too “neutral” to them.

If you go back to two channel days, the bass/treble/loudness got considerable tweaking.

If you belong to any two channel vintage groups now, and you see pictures of systems with graphic equalizers, they will almost always have the “smiley face” adjustments in play.

Flat can be boring, Happy Face matches our hearing unless the speakers are already bass and treble-heavy.
My mechanic told me, "I couldn't repair your brakes, so I made your horn louder."
Post 38 made on Thursday January 28, 2021 at 12:21
buzz
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On January 28, 2021 at 11:33, highfigh said...
Flat can be boring, ...

I have a customer who does not feel that he is getting his money's worth unless bass and treble are maxed out. He has a very aggressive subwoofer maxed out in a corner. To me the system is a screech with a thud, but this is what he likes. In fairness, he has hearing issues.

Last edited by buzz on January 29, 2021 01:09.
Post 39 made on Friday January 29, 2021 at 00:28
BobL
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There has been a lot of research on this if anyone has an AES membership thye cans view people preferences. Harman does make much of their research available online on their website. In a nutshell people without hearing problems prefer a flat sound with a natural slight roll off of highs common with sitting a little distance away greater than 10ft. At lower volumes more bass is desired as our hearing is less sensitive to hearing at lower volumes. Hence the old "loudness" button. Bass counts for about 30% of subjective ratings but it is not just quantity but quality like tight not boomy, etc.

Flat speakers tend to sound better and less fatiguing over time. If you are trying to sell speakers the happy face curve can add bass and sparkle to the highs which immediately gets someone's attention but is often fatiguing when listening for longer periods of time. This is what a lot of research has shown.

Of course people with hearing loss will boost the frequencies they are deficient. As we get older many people suffer from high frequency hearing loss and the happy face highs they will often like.
Post 40 made on Friday January 29, 2021 at 09:19
highfigh
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On January 28, 2021 at 12:21, buzz said...
I have a customer who does not feel that he is getting his money's worth unless bass and treble are maxed out. He has a very aggressive subwoofer maxed out in a corner. To me the system is a screech with a thud, but this is what he likes. In fairness, he has hearing issues.

That's similar to people wanting to hear the surround speakers more, even when the level had been set for excellent sound/effect. "I paid for them, why can't I hear them?".
My mechanic told me, "I couldn't repair your brakes, so I made your horn louder."
Post 41 made on Friday January 29, 2021 at 09:24
highfigh
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On January 29, 2021 at 00:28, BobL said...
There has been a lot of research on this if anyone has an AES membership thye cans view people preferences. Harman does make much of their research available online on their website. In a nutshell people without hearing problems prefer a flat sound with a natural slight roll off of highs common with sitting a little distance away greater than 10ft. At lower volumes more bass is desired as our hearing is less sensitive to hearing at lower volumes. Hence the old "loudness" button. Bass counts for about 30% of subjective ratings but it is not just quantity but quality like tight not boomy, etc.

Flat speakers tend to sound better and less fatiguing over time. If you are trying to sell speakers the happy face curve can add bass and sparkle to the highs which immediately gets someone's attention but is often fatiguing when listening for longer periods of time. This is what a lot of research has shown.

Of course people with hearing loss will boost the frequencies they are deficient. As we get older many people suffer from high frequency hearing loss and the happy face highs they will often like.

Dr Floyd Toole was the head of development for JBL/Harman and he has written a lot about this- Audioholics had some threads about speakers & acoustics, in which Dr Toole was a well-involved contributor, as well as Sean Olive, one of the others in that area of Harman Int'l. His test system used only one speaker and was able to blindly substitute speakers, to find out what people preferred.

In a controlled test, yes, people will choose similar-sounding speakers but once they go home, they set the controls the way they want, if they know how to do that. Some people like to find out what a system can do and I have had to go back to fix what they screwed with. That's the reason I like to lock the controls.
My mechanic told me, "I couldn't repair your brakes, so I made your horn louder."
Post 42 made on Friday January 29, 2021 at 16:09
Ernie Gilman
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On January 29, 2021 at 09:19, highfigh said...
That's similar to people wanting to hear the surround speakers more, even when the level had been set for excellent sound/effect. "I paid for them, why can't I hear them?".

There are certain customers (somehow I can't call them "clients") who MUST have their surround systems set to Party mode. Otherwise they don't believe they have surround sound. Which, of course, they then don't have.

Reminds me of being on the sales floor in the early 90s: The only way I could prove to some people that DSP did anything was to set the receiver to Stadium mode. Ooh, wow, you heard sound from everywhere!

I like the clients who don't get confused when you explain what's going on during a news broadcast where sound only comes from the center speaker.
A good answer is easier with a clear question giving the make and model of everything.
"The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place." -- G. “Bernie” Shaw
Post 43 made on Friday January 29, 2021 at 18:47
buzz
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On January 29, 2021 at 09:19, highfigh said...
That's similar to people wanting to hear the surround speakers more, even when the level had been set for excellent sound/effect. "I paid for them, why can't I hear them?".

Been through that a zillion times and I have never learned that surround must smack the customer in the back of the head. I always set for good effect and the first customer comment is "why aren't the surround speakers working?" [sigh]
Post 44 made on Friday January 29, 2021 at 19:02
BobL
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Many of these situations I have ran into over my career. Of course I also explain certain programs like the news are simply not recorded in surround sound. But most people need a demo to understand.

For surrounds I like to demo a number of material but one of the best I have found is Master in Commander before the cannons at the beginning of the movie. In fact I stop the demo right before the cannon start unless you want to demo bass.

There is nothing particularly exciting in the movie at this point. They are on the ship, the wind is blowing, bells are ringing, a lot of background noise and conversations. Nothing that calls attention to the surrounds like when something flies overhead or across the room. While they are listening to this scene I press the stereo button on the receiver or processor. The whole soundstage collapses to the front of the room. They now realize that the surrounds were immersing them in this environment and that they were actually hearing them but they weren't calling attention to themselves.

As far as preference versus reference I think it is time. I have a theory I call the Mom's spaghetti rule. Everybody's mom (grandma, etc.) makes the best spaghetti. Meaning everyone has their own reference. If you mostly only listen to music in the car than that is your reference. If you mostly use ear buds that is your reference. You know what music sounds like for your reference and that is set how you prefer. If your reference has very boomy, bloated bass when you hear accurate bass you think it is anemic. However, if a person listen to accurate music for a while and then goes back to their old reference they then realize that it was boomy and bloated.

Toole mentioned this in his book and the reason they decided to use trained listeners. They found that untrained listeners came to the same conclusion but took them longer to get to that conclusion. I don't think most people when demoing speakers in the showroom spend enough time. It is why accurate speakers often do not do sell as well in many showrooms. I KNOW some companies do research with the public with preferences with simulating the amount of time they would likely do a demo and how quickly they would switch between speakers. Not all that research is made public. I do give Kudos to Harman for making their research public.

In the end for any speaker company it is about sales and that is where a lot of research is directed.
Post 45 made on Saturday January 30, 2021 at 08:56
highfigh
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On January 29, 2021 at 19:02, BobL said...

As far as preference versus reference I think it is time. I have a theory I call the Mom's spaghetti rule. Everybody's mom (grandma, etc.) makes the best spaghetti. Meaning everyone has their own reference.

You don't like noodles with Ketchup? Yeesh! The crap some people try to pass off as food....I remember going to friends' houses for lunch or dinner as a kid and being served some mess they thought was amazing. Ya just can't say anything about it, either.

If you mostly only listen to music in the car than that is your reference. If you mostly use ear buds that is your reference. You know what music sounds like for your reference and that is set how you prefer. If your reference has very boomy, bloated bass when you hear accurate bass you think it is anemic. However, if a person listen to accurate music for a while and then goes back to their old reference they then realize that it was boomy and bloated.

When I did car audio, a guy came in with a Pontiac GTA (Grand Trans Am) after someone stole the audio system. The sales guys had a bad habit of selling equipment that would be difficult to install in some cars and as usual, that was the case with this one. He told the guy we could build a bandpass box for the 12" Infinity Kappa subs, which needed a fairly large box. Being a Trans Am, it didn't have room for a big box and the available space was irregularly-shaped, but I measured and modeled the box, finally arriving at a decent response, with some semi-educated guesswork WRT the way it would interact with the car's interior. Then, there was the issue of the door panels that needed to be cut and custom mounts made because the panels weren't flat and the guy didn't want holes in the door panels (the sales guy was clearly not listening). That left 4x6 in the dash, 6x9 mid-bass drivers in the rear pillars, the two subs and the electronics. This car was to be entered in an IASCA event that our company was sponsoring and it too place at our store- he entered and in the RTA section, it scored 37 out of 40 points. He absolutely hated the sound of the bass, so he bought an MTX demo CD, went to a remote part of the parking lot and proceeded to blow the shyte out of the woofers. Turns out, the original "subs" were Orion woofers, mounted in a piece of particle board and screwed down, with leaks around the edges.


Toole mentioned this in his book and the reason they decided to use trained listeners. They found that untrained listeners came to the same conclusion but took them longer to get to that conclusion. I don't think most people when demoing speakers in the showroom spend enough time. It is why accurate speakers often do not do sell as well in many showrooms. I KNOW some companies do research with the public with preferences with simulating the amount of time they would likely do a demo and how quickly they would switch between speakers. Not all that research is made public. I do give Kudos to Harman for making their research public.

In the end for any speaker company it is about sales and that is where a lot of research is directed.

Some people don't know what they're supposed to listen for, either. Others have a friend who's an 'expert', too- what a PITA that is. Another huge problem is the fact that the speakers WILL NOT sound the same at home and unless someone is installing the equipment for them, chances are good that the speakers will be in the worst possible locations.
My mechanic told me, "I couldn't repair your brakes, so I made your horn louder."
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