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Mysterious Electrical Issue
This thread has 26 replies. Displaying posts 1 through 15.
Post 1 made on Sunday February 16, 2020 at 14:07
crosen
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My client's second home in the Hamptons has been losing power for around an hour at a time roughly twice a day for the last week. No one is at the home currently, so the info I have is mostly limited to data from monitoring systems.

What I'm seeing is that the OvrC hub goes offline, and then around an hour later I get a notification that the main controller has rebooted. (OvrC going offline could be a comm issue, but the main controller rebooting is clearly not.)

On Friday, the electric company went out to take a look, and concluded the problem was not on their end. So, essentially, somewhere between the demarc point and the home's power distribution, something cuts out for around an hour at a time twice a day for a week.

What could cause the house to lose and regain power like this?
If it's not simple, it's not sufficiently advanced.
Post 2 made on Sunday February 16, 2020 at 14:16
thecapnredfish
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One answer could be the power company just didn’t find anything. Cable service there? Friendly with a cable tech? He could see if neighbors CPE goes offline at same time. That would verify its power or not. A faulty ground or neutral connection. Highly unlikely both have an issue. If you lost neutral and ground, cable service drop would have melted at ground block. So I really don’t know.
OP | Post 3 made on Sunday February 16, 2020 at 14:29
crosen
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Maybe you could help fill in my mental model of what's going on. If I looked at the main electric panel in the house, I would see two hots and neutral coming from the electric company. If I traced those three cables upstream (i.e. from the panel toward the street), what would I see? And, where exactly is the demarc point?

I just can't figure how power can go out and recover without there being a breaker of some sort in the pathway.
If it's not simple, it's not sufficiently advanced.
Post 4 made on Sunday February 16, 2020 at 14:37
jberger
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You need some data logging to help you identify what's going really on.
Do you have a UPS that reports voltage states?
An Alarm panel with Cell Backup that can help you know if you are just loosing comms or if power is the issue?

Did the PoCo hookup a logger and let it run for a week or just test at the meter and declare it was ok in the 15 minutes they were there.

Does the site have generator with an automatic transfer switch?
OP | Post 5 made on Sunday February 16, 2020 at 15:08
crosen
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On February 16, 2020 at 14:37, jberger said...
You need some data logging to help you identify what's going really on.

Do you have a UPS that reports voltage states?

The UPS reports voltage, but only on a local display.

An Alarm panel with Cell Backup that can help you know if you are just loosing comms or if power is the issue?

Have a message into security provider.

Did the PoCo hookup a logger and let it run for a week or just test at the meter and declare it was ok in the 15 minutes they were there.

They pumped current through the lines to see if they would hold up, which they did.

Does the site have generator with an automatic transfer switch?

No generator.
If it's not simple, it's not sufficiently advanced.
Post 6 made on Sunday February 16, 2020 at 15:24
buzz
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At a very crude level, look at a dumb electric clock. Does it keep time? Note that some clocks will still keep time at 90V, but the control system may drop out.

A bad connection can cause the voltage to sag significantly when the power line is under heavy load.

Take a voltmeter to the site and measure every witch way while heavy loads are operating. (air conditioning, furnace, refrigerator, and such) There could be a problem in the branch circuit that is powering your system.

I don't know what type of voltmeter you are using. Some voltmeters include a logging function. You can also set up a latching relay circuit, latch the circuit and monitor it with a remote camera. If the light goes out, there was a drop on that circuit.

If line voltage is actually sagging, the likelihood of fire increases.

Edit: Will other units report their up time? For example, if there is a Sonos system, you can submit a diagnostic and ask Sonos support when each unit was booted. This could be handy information if the players are scattered around the house.

Last edited by buzz on February 16, 2020 15:36.
Post 7 made on Sunday February 16, 2020 at 20:12
King of typos
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You said that the clients are away right now. So I assume this house is probably at a very low energy use. If that is the case, it’s still possible that the neutral is being lost and the cable is able to handle the small amount of current. Even then, if leg A is using 10amps and leg B is using 8amps. That leaves 2amps going down the cable line if the neutral truly is lost.

Also you could put a camera facing the UPS with a clock, if need be, to record when it goes to battery and for how long. Just curious, what kind of UPS doesn’t log to a computer that has a display?

KOT
Post 8 made on Sunday February 16, 2020 at 21:46
highfigh
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The power company's meters should be transmitting data and you should be logging data, somehow. Can you aim a camera at the meter?
My mechanic told me, "I couldn't repair your brakes, so I made your horn louder."
Post 9 made on Sunday February 16, 2020 at 22:57
Brad Humphrey
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What does "They pumped current thru the lines" mean? LOL, that has got to be the biggest load of horse $hit I've heard yet. Did they hook a garden hose to it?

I hope that you are paraphrasing something you didn't understand or something. Because for the electric company to say something like that, is downright disrespectful. They might as well told you, they tested the flux capacitor and all was well.

Someone 'knowledgeable' and with logging equipment is going to have to go onsite to get to the bottom of this. This is not something someone on a forum board is going to be able to help you with. It is a unique troubleshooting problem that is going to require hands-on.
Post 10 made on Sunday February 16, 2020 at 23:09
SammPX
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Does your power distribution include wattbox units, specifically the 12 outlet unit? They have a program in place to swap out a handful of possibly defective units made prior to April 2019
Post 11 made on Sunday February 16, 2020 at 23:24
Munson
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On February 16, 2020 at 15:08, crosen said...
The UPS reports voltage, but only on a local display.

So are you saying the UPS at a local display always has power? If so then the house is not losing power your equipment location is.
Post 12 made on Monday February 17, 2020 at 08:15
TAAVS
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Get one of these: [Link: ametekesp.com]
OP | Post 13 made on Monday February 17, 2020 at 08:43
crosen
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On February 16, 2020 at 22:57, Brad Humphrey said...
What does "They pumped current thru the lines" mean? LOL, that has got to be the biggest load of horse $hit I've heard yet. Did they hook a garden hose to it?

From what I gather, they connected a load at the demarc that drew 80A and let that run for 10 minutes.

Someone 'knowledgeable' and with logging equipment is going to have to go onsite to get to the bottom of this. This is not something someone on a forum board is going to be able to help you with. It is a unique troubleshooting problem that is going to require hands-on.

I've asked that an electrician take on this issue. I came to the boards because I would like to understand what I can about this.
If it's not simple, it's not sufficiently advanced.
Post 14 made on Monday February 17, 2020 at 09:08
King of typos
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On February 17, 2020 at 08:43, crosen said...
From what I gather, they connected a load at the demarc that drew 80A and let that run for 10 minutes.

I've asked that an electrician take on this issue. I came to the boards because I would like to understand what I can about this.

Strange how they tested it at the demarc. Because the cable from there to the weather head, or top of the meter if underground, is technically theirs.

Unless they removed the meter and put the resistive load at the meter socket. Which was done for my house when I lost a leg, 5 plus different times. Of course they didn’t want to replace the cable because it’s direct buried since 1979. So they just keep coming out to replace the damaged section. Band-aid on top of band-aid. At this point, my house is in the red for them. Because each time a leg was lost... happened on a Sunday. Double time and half for everyone there. Then the 3rd party diggers and such.

KOT
Post 15 made on Monday February 17, 2020 at 09:24
highfigh
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On February 17, 2020 at 09:08, King of typos said...
Strange how they tested it at the demarc. Because the cable from there to the weather head, or top of the meter if underground, is technically theirs.

Unless they removed the meter and put the resistive load at the meter socket. Which was done for my house when I lost a leg, 5 plus different times. Of course they didn’t want to replace the cable because it’s direct buried since 1979. So they just keep coming out to replace the damaged section. Band-aid on top of band-aid. At this point, my house is in the red for them. Because each time a leg was lost... happened on a Sunday. Double time and half for everyone there. Then the 3rd party diggers and such.

KOT

I would be surprised if their meters can't perform some kind of diagnostics.

They lost money on your house? Not a chance. Utilities aren't in business to lose money.

If they don't need to go through rock, they would probably drill through the ground to get new cabling to your house- one of my clients needed a new cable from Spectrum last Summer and it only took about 1/2 hour to drill but it was only going under a driveway.
My mechanic told me, "I couldn't repair your brakes, so I made your horn louder."
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