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Topic:
Unbalanced/Balanced Inputs on Mixers
This thread has 24 replies. Displaying posts 1 through 15.
Post 1 made on Thursday March 14, 2019 at 18:23
alihashemi
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Hi All:

Excuse my ignorance in asking this--it's out of my own curiosity. I've noticed that on mixers there a few unbalanced inputs and many balanced inputs. If one has many sources with unbalanced outputs, what is the best way to connect them to a mixer? Let's say I have 6 sources with unbalanced outputs and a mixer with 2 unbalanced inputs and 10 balanced inputs. I've seen converters like the RDL TX-A2--are these common to use? I also checked the specs for a Yamaha MTX3 and the actual load inputs it expects are ~600ohm for BOTH balanced and unbalanced inputs.

Anyway, random question just for learning. I really don't know much about commercial stuff!

Thanks as always,
Ali
Ali Hashemi
Post 2 made on Thursday March 14, 2019 at 18:43
SammPX
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[Link: artproaudio.com]

These are also good for Sonos unbalanced outputs going into Crown balanced amps for outdoor zones. Makes a HUGE difference in volume level and fidelity
OP | Post 3 made on Thursday March 14, 2019 at 18:44
alihashemi
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Did some more research and have seen in a few manuals that you can connect unbalanced inputs to balanced inputs by shorting "G" and "-".

Thoughts/inputs?

Feel like this is the perfect post for Ernie to answer :)
Ali Hashemi
Post 4 made on Thursday March 14, 2019 at 20:00
Brad Humphrey
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On March 14, 2019 at 18:44, alihashemi said...
Did some more research and have seen in a few manuals that you can connect unbalanced inputs to balanced inputs by shorting "G" and "-".

Thoughts/inputs?

Feel like this is the perfect post for Ernie to answer :)

That just makes the physical connection. It does NOT address the level difference.

However, many mixers have the ability to accept a low level signal on those inputs. Usually a switch or dedicated input, that lets you select the input signal for certain inputs. If you have THAT many un-balanced inputs, you need to be looking at mixers that allow that on many channels.
Example: [Link: mackie.com]

By the way, that Yamaha you mentioned does exactly that. You can select either mic or line level input on channels 1 thru 8.
Post 5 made on Thursday March 14, 2019 at 20:02
buzz
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At home one might have a few components to hookup and the distances are relatively short, perhaps 10 or 15 feet at most and everything plugs into the same outlet. As the system becomes larger and more complex with longer cables, nasty issues creep in that are very difficult to resolve. Issues such as picking up hum or the local radio station. Further, too long cables can cause loss of high frequencies.

In a commercial environment there could be dozens and dozens of sources and cable runs of more than 100 feet. The commercial guys will not hesitate to run their cables "over the river and through the woods". At home we start to worry when the length approaches 20 feet or so for audio cables. This is because the commercial guys use "balanced" cables. If you look at the balanced cable ends, there are multiple pins, not just one pin that is typical of home setups.

There is a fierce amount of hostile (to audio signals) energy floating around out there. We use "shielded" cable in an attempt to protect the signal from being polluted by noise. The shield is a flexible metal sheath enclosing the signal wire(s). The theory is that the shield will intercept the noise energy and preventing it from reaching the enclosed conductor(s) carrying the signal. Unfortunately, the shield is not 100% effective and a certain amount of noise reaches the central conductor(s) anyway. Obviously, the longer the cable run and in very noisy environments, enough noise energy reaches the center conductor(s) to cause trouble.

Balanced cables use an interesting trick to cancel most of this noise. The reason for the multiple pins is that two versions of the signal are sent down the wires inside a shield. You can think of them as (+) and (-) versions. As noise enters the cable along the way it effects the (+) and (-) wires equally. At the receiving end the two versions are subtracted. From algebra, remember that (+1)-(-1) = 2. The (2) is our signal and the noise faces (+1)-(+1)= 0 in that subtraction and the noise is cancelled.

Now to the 600 Ohms. This is a little more difficult to explain. Note that this explanation is a little crude and I'm sweeping a few things under the table that should be included, but it will help you visualize what is happening and save me from writing a book, rather than a paragraph.

If you measure the resistance of a consumer audio input jack you might measure 10K, 20K, or even 100K Ohms. In pro audio gear you'll measure something on the order of 600 Ohms. In our shielded cable only a small amount of energy leaks through the shield. Unfortunately, if this small amount of energy becomes a significant fraction of our signal energy this will cause trouble. In consumer equipment a 100K input will not dissipate much of this energy and it mixes easily with our signal. In the 600 Ohm environment the small noise energy is easily dissipated.

Why don't we use balanced at home? Simple -- balanced is much more expensive than unbalanced. First, we have three times as many conductors inside the shield and three times as many pins in the connectors. Next, we need an inverter as part of the source to generate the (+) and (-) versions. Then, we need a subtracter at the receiving end to support our cancellation trick. Finally, we need to supply more signal power from the source so that the the signal does not disappear along with the noise at the 600 Ohm receiving end. Overall, the balanced approach is several times the cost of unbalanced -- multiplied by however many inputs and outputs the equipment supports.

There is more to this story than I've indicated above. Real pros are loath to incorporate unbalanced signals into their system. The pros will use special boxes to isolate and convert the unbalanced equipment to balanced before introducing this signal into their mixer. Managing noise becomes so complicated for large systems that there are engineers who make a good living by going to these installations and eliminating the noise.
Post 6 made on Thursday March 14, 2019 at 21:50
Ernie Gilman
Yes, That Ernie!
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Ali, buzz wrote half the Bible here. I was busy today....
I'll try to make these answers brief. I said try.

On March 14, 2019 at 20:02, buzz said...
At home one might have a few components to hookup and the distances are relatively short, perhaps 10 or 15 feet at most and everything plugs into the same outlet. As the system becomes larger and more complex with longer cables, nasty issues creep in that are very difficult to resolve. Issues such as picking up hum or the local radio station. Further, too long cables can cause loss of high frequencies.

I had a client in an apartment with living room on one side of the wall and bedroom on the other. He had surround systems in each room that shared inputs. He moved to a place where the living room and bedroom where fifty feet of wire apart (once done). He had me wire up his two systems.

Halfway through connecting things up, I left him with working components, and the TV had hum bars (this was back in NTSC TV days) running up it. He sort of freaked.

I told him that we'd hunt down the hum problems once the wiring was finished. When the wiring was finished, there was no longer any hum.

Lesson: A ground loop is a ground loop that causes hum. A ground loop that doesn't cause hum is not called anything because there's no problem with it. Keep adding interconnections and hum might just go away.

In a commercial environment there could be dozens and dozens of sources and cable runs of more than 100 feet.

The way to avoid problems in these cases is to use twisted wire, balanced connections, and have low source impedance.
The commercial guys will not hesitate to run their cables "over the river and through the woods". At home we start to worry when the length approaches 20 feet or so for audio cables. This is because the commercial guys use "balanced" cables.
And low source impedance.

If you look at the balanced cable ends, there are multiple pins

I think calling three "multiple" is an exaggeration. RCAs have two -- the pin and the shield -- and we don't say "several" with that.
, not just one pin that is typical of home setups.

One pin plus shield, remember. Also, that shield is the ground connection from one component to another.

There is a fierce amount of hostile (to audio signals) energy floating around out there. We use "shielded" cable in an attempt to protect the signal from being polluted by noise. The shield is a flexible metal sheath enclosing the signal wire(s). The theory is that the shield will intercept the noise energy and preventing it from reaching the enclosed conductor(s) carrying the signal.

Note that the shield can be connected at both ends or at one end; if it's connected at one end, it should be connected at the source, so noise can sink into the low impedance situation at the source. If it sinks into the input (think AUX IN), the noise will be amplified along with the signal.

Unfortunately, the shield is not 100% effective and a certain amount of noise reaches the central conductor(s) anyway. Obviously, the longer the cable run and in very noisy environments, enough noise energy reaches the center conductor(s) to cause trouble.

True, and here he's speaking of unbalanced wiring. Plain old Consumer Krap (POCK).

Balanced cables use an interesting trick to cancel most of this noise. The reason for the multiple pins is that two versions of the signal are sent down the wires inside a shield. You can think of them as (+) and (-) versions.

Now this is the opposite of exaggeration. They are EXACTLY opposite polarity versions of one another. And three pins still isn't multiple.

As noise enters the cable along the way it effects

affects
the (+) and (-) wires equally. At the receiving end the two versions are subtracted. From algebra, remember that (+1)-(-1) = 2. The (2) is our signal and the noise faces (+1)-(+1)= 0 in that subtraction and the noise is cancelled.

I'd say it this way: the following stage amplifies the signal on both halves of the wire, and adds them up. The two halves that are reverse in polarity add up to the signal. The two noise portions that are identical appear at the following input, but they are both the same signal, resulting in zero signal. The technical name for the same signal (neither reversed) on both wires of a balanced cable is the Common Mode Signal. See, the noise is common (and identical) on both wires. But since the amp amplifies the difference between the two signals, and there's no difference, that noise is not seen. It sill might be possible for the amp to somehow be sensitive to noise on both wires. The spec that describes this issue is Common Mode Rejection Ratio (CMRR) which lists how HOT a common mode signal (identical on both wires and identical polarity) before it will influence the audio signal.

Now to the 600 Ohms. This is a little more difficult to explain. Note that this explanation is a little crude and I'm sweeping a few things under the table that should be included, but it will help you visualize what is happening and save me from writing a book, rather than a paragraph.

As can often be said of me, too late!
If you measure the resistance of a consumer audio input jack you might measure 10K, 20K, or even 100K Ohms. In pro audio gear you'll measure something on the order of 600 Ohms. In our shielded cable only a small amount of energy leaks through the shield. Unfortunately, if this small amount of energy becomes a significant fraction of our signal energy this will cause trouble. In consumer equipment a 100K input will not dissipate much of this energy and it mixes easily with our signal. In the 600 Ohm environment the small noise energy is easily dissipated.

Why don't we use balanced at home? Simple -- balanced is much more expensive than unbalanced. First, we have three times as many conductors inside the shield and three times as many pins in the connectors.

buzz... wha?
Balanced cables have two signal leads and one shield. That's three. Unbalanced have on hot lead and one shield. That's two. There's no three times anything (except the price of the wire and the price of the connector).
Next, we need an inverter as part of the source to generate the (+) and (-) versions. Then, we need a subtracter at the receiving end to support our cancellation trick. Finally, we need to supply more signal power from the source so that the the signal does not disappear along with the noise at the 600 Ohm receiving end. Overall, the balanced approach is several times the cost of unbalanced -- multiplied by however many inputs and outputs the equipment supports.

Basically, yes.
There is more to this story than I've indicated above.

True.
Real pros are loath to incorporate unbalanced signals into their system. The pros will use special boxes

Called Direct Boxes in PA use.
to isolate and convert the unbalanced equipment to balanced before introducing this signal into their mixer. Managing noise becomes so complicated for large systems that there are engineers who make a good living by going to these installations and eliminating the noise.

Ali,
I remember one question you asked: Yes, we connect an unbalanced source to a balanced input by connecting the unbalanced hot to the balanced +, and the unbalanced ground to the balanced - and to the ground. Note that this means that only half the voltage (-6dB) is presented by only the +. Beyond that, pro level is hotter anyway, as buzz mentioned.

One thing to remember is to not try to simply mix balanced and unbalanced stuff. And if you EVER have to play a stereo source in mono, DO NOT use a Y cable. Rane has a white paper on this. Download it.
A good answer is easier with a clear question giving the make and model of everything.
"The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place." -- G. “Bernie” Shaw
Post 7 made on Friday March 15, 2019 at 09:51
highfigh
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To add to what has beem posted, pro audio uses different reference levels- if you look at the specs, you'll often see +4dBU and consumer levels at -10dB. The link explains this.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org]

Here's an explanatin of 'balanced audio'-

[Link: en.wikipedia.org]

Best practice when sending unbalanced audio to a balanced input- use something that allows the impedance of the output to match the input where it's connected. Some mics are high impedance, some are low impedance- Low impedance mics use the XLR jacks at the input of a mixer, high impedance have a 1/4" plug. Microphone manufacturers often have a small transformer that converts between these and it connects at the mic, then the appropriate cable is connected normally.

For unbalanced audio sources, like SammPX's example, that Art piece is great. If you have multiple sources that need to be connected, it may be simpler and cheaper to use a simple matching transformer for each and mount them on some kind of panel. Jensen Transformers and EDcor make these, as well as a lot of other companies. Go to the PA/recording area of a music store and you should be able to find what you need.
My mechanic told me, "I couldn't repair your brakes, so I made your horn louder."
Post 8 made on Friday March 15, 2019 at 11:00
Fred Harding
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Pretty much everything has been said.

Pro level output vs. consumer level output difference of 14 dB is one I deal with as dealers attempt to use consumer equipment with pro amplifiers. Some, NOT ALL, pro amps can be set for either consumer or pro level signals. Clearly, it matters, as 14 dB appears over twice as loud....
On the West Coast of Wisconsin
Post 9 made on Friday March 15, 2019 at 13:00
Ernie Gilman
Yes, That Ernie!
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Don't forget a fact that's totally unrelated to the entire impedance, balanced/unbalanced, and level situation: mp3 players and phones that can play music almost always have outputs that, when turned all the way up, it's still several dB (6ish) lower than standard consumer line level, so maybe 20 dB down from the zero dB level of pro gear.
A good answer is easier with a clear question giving the make and model of everything.
"The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place." -- G. “Bernie” Shaw
Post 10 made on Friday March 15, 2019 at 13:05
Fred Harding
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As a corollary to that, Ernie, it's always important to remember to blame the amplifier rather than the inexpensive device....
On the West Coast of Wisconsin
Post 11 made on Friday March 15, 2019 at 13:35
Ernie Gilman
Yes, That Ernie!
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Fred,
this has been true with every iPhone I've ever run across, and you can't say those are "inexpensive devices."

Besides, I didn't overtly assign blame. I just said that's how it is. I point out that players are different from "standard consumer" levels, so if anything, I blame the players.
A good answer is easier with a clear question giving the make and model of everything.
"The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place." -- G. “Bernie” Shaw
Post 12 made on Friday March 15, 2019 at 13:51
Fred Harding
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Talking end users, boss.
On the West Coast of Wisconsin
Post 13 made on Friday March 15, 2019 at 13:55
Ernie Gilman
Yes, That Ernie!
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Do you mean that end users will blame the pro equipment? I suppose so.
A good answer is easier with a clear question giving the make and model of everything.
"The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place." -- G. “Bernie” Shaw
Post 14 made on Friday March 15, 2019 at 14:04
TBD Brian
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Look at the QSC mixers. The MP-M80 has 8 unbalanced inputs
TBD Brian
Post 15 made on Friday March 15, 2019 at 14:38
Fred Harding
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Brian, indeed they do. If you'd like more info on that piece, here's an article some guy wrote on that series... [Link: cepro.com]
On the West Coast of Wisconsin
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